ccp_fozzie [10:39 AM] joined #tactical-destroyers

ccp_fozzie [10:39 AM] set the channel purpose: Main Channel for the Tactical Destroyer focus group

ccp_fozzie [1:21 PM] set the channel purpose: Main Channel for the Tactical Destroyer focus group. Remember: Everything said in this channel will be made available to the public.

mikeazariah [4:48 PM] joined #tactical-destroyers. Also, @selto_black joined, @hoodie-mafia joined, @forsot joined.

ccp_fozzie [5:41 PM] I've already posted this in the forum thread, but to get us started (since it would be an obvious topic of discussion right away otherwise) we can announce that we're gonna switch T3Ds to T2 level insurance payouts in December

ccp_fozzie[5:42 PM]Not the only problem with them, but it's a problem with them we can get out of the way easily

chessur [5:42 PM] joined #tactical-destroyers

ccp_fozzie [5:43 PM] Once the majority of people have arrived I'll start asking some questions to get us going

selto_black [5:43 PM] I'd just like to state that t3d's are the most ewar immune ships I've played with.

ccp_fozzie [5:44 PM] specifically because of sharpshooter mode or for other reasons?

hoodie-mafia [5:44 PM] He might be referring to the oversized AB variants as well

selto_black [5:44 PM] Most specifically the svipul.

selto_black[5:46 PM]Neuts don't affect the  dual msab fits and by the time it's in neut range the propmod dosent matter.

selto_black[5:46 PM]Webs are mitigated by the speed mode of both the fessor and the svipul. (edited)

selto_black[5:47 PM]Jams, Td's and damps are mitagate by sharpshooter. Ect.

chessur [5:47 PM] Neuts and webs are what kill them

chessur[5:48 PM]Sharpshooter mode, while good- gets yoy killed pretty quickly no?

chessur[5:48 PM]Yoy have horrible sig / speed in sharpshooter?

selto_black [5:48 PM] In pve sharpshooter is generally preferred in my experience.

chessur [5:49 PM] You are not wrong on the svip though, far and away best in class

hoodie-mafia [5:49 PM] in both armor and shield

chessur [5:49 PM] Ohh, i thought we were talking pvp hehe

selto_black [5:49 PM] Well in one, applies both, correct?

hoodie-mafia [5:49 PM] thats a good point actually, is this discussion mainly focused on pvp?

hoodie-mafia[5:50 PM]Or maybe to be more accurate; Tactical destroyers in pvp scenarios

selto_black [5:50 PM] I joined this group specifically to see the t3ds pve capabilities remain in a decent place.

forsot [5:51 PM] the only Pve uses are c13/WR afaik is their another im not aware of?

chessur [5:51 PM] But outside of blitzing lv2 and doing shattered wh

selto_black [5:51 PM] I rat in all space.

chessur [5:51 PM] What other pve use do you need then for?

selto_black [5:51 PM] Ded's, clone hunting, garmur hunting...

selto_black[5:52 PM]Lowend null anoms.

ccp_fozzie [5:52 PM] More of you will have PVP experience than PVE with them, but I do want to make sure PVE is taken into account

chessur [5:52 PM] Good to know

hoodie-mafia [5:52 PM] Sounds reasonable

ccp_fozzie [5:52 PM] Fun fact: as part of the design process of the medium burner missions, I make sure that I can beat them in a tactical destroyer (it doesn't have to be easy)

selto_black [5:53 PM] I should try those then.

selto_black[5:53 PM]They are on sisi yes?

ccp_fozzie [5:54 PM] yeah, although they're mixed into the normal level 4 mission pool

selto_black [5:54 PM] That's fine. I need to try lvl4's with them any way.

hoodie-mafia [5:56 PM] I have to admit that outside of a test run in a Wolf Rayet wormhole I have never really considered the T3D as a class for pve.  They are such attractive ships for pvp though

selto_black [5:57 PM] They are pretty decent for pve when you want to go into high risk places.

selto_black[5:58 PM]I can manage 5/10's even.

chessur [5:59 PM] Certainly at The 5/10 level,  there are more efficient options?

hoodie-mafia [5:59 PM] Another Tech 3 ship comes to mind:)

chessur [6:00 PM] Indeed :)

selto_black [6:00 PM] Eh. Too rich for my blood.

selto_black[6:01 PM]Plus I have issues with flying something so blatantly overpowered.

forsot [6:01 PM] ya dont you run into issues with tank? i remember back in the day when i did hs deds you couldn’t run 4/10s with af because the tank was too high on the faction rat at the end

selto_black [6:01 PM] Switch to gleam, refit max dps.

selto_black[6:02 PM]My fit gets ?219? Dps with Aurora.

selto_black[6:02 PM]I'll have to check after work.

selto_black[6:04 PM]I'm not saying its the best for the job of making isk.

selto_black[6:05 PM]But for someone who only has 20-30m sp and only min cruiser V its hard to beat.

ccp_logibro [6:14 PM] joined #tactical-destroyers

selto_black [7:41 PM] eyes channel for more attendees.

johnnytwelvebore [8:55 PM] joined #tactical-destroyers

johnnytwelvebore [9:02 PM] I don't think the problem is the PVE capabilities to be honest here, the combination of lowish buffer and either moderate damage at range or having to get close to do big damage means that although you can run sites it is a pain to do them quickly. In any case these are T3 ships and they should be solid against a predictable AI opponent.

johnnytwelvebore[9:03 PM]I think the PVP issues are what most people are concerned with.

selto_black [9:04 PM] Id like to see if we cant solve the pvp issues without killing the pve uses

selto_black[9:04 PM]we shall see if we can manage :simple_smile:

ccp_fozzie [9:05 PM] Ideally we want to make the ships more fun to fly and provide more opportunities for players to demonstrate skill, while reducing the more troublesome aspects

johnnytwelvebore [9:06 PM] To be fair does anyone disagree with the premise that the Svip and to a lesser extent the Confessor are streets ahead of the other two, I would suggest that the other two are broadly fine?

selto_black [9:06 PM] HAHAHAHA the sviple is broken

ccp_fozzie [9:06 PM] keeping PVE in mind as we consider potential changes is going to be important

selto_black [9:07 PM] however its the confessor that really shines in pve because of the massive benifits beams have over artillery

johnnytwelvebore [9:07 PM] I was chatting to TF the other day and suggested a longer transition between modes, perhaps also a longer than 10 secs cooldown. Then I was away for a week or so and came back and everyone is all over it:) Guess I can't claim credit for that one now...:)

destoya [9:08 PM] joined #tactical-destroyers

selto_black [9:08 PM] the 10 seconds seems long enough to me, the switch just needs to happen at the end of the cycle instead of the beginning

johnnytwelvebore [9:09 PM] The problem is that they use a unique new mechanic and are in their own unique bracket so balancing that is A) going to be tricky and B) may require unique new contraints.

forsot [9:09 PM] rather then make it longer why not flip when it gets applied that way you need to put more for thought?

selto_black [9:09 PM] that change will however lead me to lose a couple of confessors to being alphed...

johnnytwelvebore [9:11 PM] Exactly, the problem is not that in tank mode they are tanky or fast in prop but that they can switch so rapidly whereas in a normal ship you would have to dock and refit or use a carrier or MTU.  That said I actually believe that even the Svip is not overpowered, it just scales well with links and good piloting. We have all killed plenty of mediocre ones.

johnnytwelvebore[9:12 PM]If I see a Svip I just make sure I have a Neut and ideally a web or two and bang, dead Svip.

selto_black [9:12 PM] You bring up a good point there. I think youre wrong on the svip not being op but its still a good point.

selto_black[9:13 PM]Are dual msab svips not as popular as other fits?

johnnytwelvebore [9:14 PM] The T3 cruisers have a unique drawback (skill loss), perhaps some sort of unique drawback for the dessies too? I thought maybe a cooldown before you can board another one? Not sure that is even code-able though?

selto_black [9:14 PM] eh

selto_black[9:14 PM]on a 50mil ship?

johnnytwelvebore [9:15 PM] Dual Masb is a one trick pony I think, I wouldnt fly it.

selto_black [9:15 PM] whats most popular then in your expierence

selto_black[9:15 PM]also what is most powerful?

johnnytwelvebore [9:16 PM] There is no such thing as the one best fit, depends on what you're fighting.. (edited)

forsot [9:17 PM] the t3 desis are in an odd spot since sleeper loot was so cheap a fit one was about 1.5x the cost of an af  but adding odd penaltys just just going to make ppl not want to fly them unless they know they are going to get a win same with current t3 cruisers i know a few ppl who hate flying t3 cruisers because of the sp loss

johnnytwelvebore [9:17 PM] Before the nerf MSB cap boosted 10mn was ungodly with links. What you couldn't kill you could disengage from.  You can still fly that fit but the agility means worse application and overshooting is more of an issue.

selto_black [9:18 PM] I refuse to fly t3c for that and other reasons forsot.

selto_black[9:19 PM]So what are some of the top tier fits then?

selto_black[9:19 PM]is the problem with the svip that it scales too well? or is it the ship itself?

johnnytwelvebore [9:19 PM] Well what do you fly? Surely you have a thought on this?

selto_black [9:19 PM] My pve fits are vastly different than your pvp fits

forsot [9:20 PM] the biggest issue i have seen is they directly force the af out of most areas when the conf and sviple came out we were useing eynos for fighting in a WR but confessors and sviple just stomped on them there was no comparion

selto_black [9:20 PM] but when i do pvp its either in a dual sebo arty svip or dual msab mwd svip

johnnytwelvebore [9:20 PM] AF rebalancing is probably another subject but I agree they need some loving, I love AF hulls.

selto_black [9:21 PM] Muh poor wolf T.T

johnnytwelvebore [9:21 PM] Is dual masb/mwd not horrible at range control?

forsot [9:21 PM] i would have to go look at my numbers but you could get a comparable sig/speed with close to twice the dps and buffer compairing eynos to confs

selto_black [9:22 PM] dosent matter melts face

selto_black[9:22 PM]im not saying im good at pvp

forsot [9:22 PM] then the sviple came out and WR arty svilpe is king

selto_black [9:22 PM] Beam fessor

selto_black[9:22 PM]for pve atleast

johnnytwelvebore [9:22 PM] Noone would disagree about AFs but we will just have to wait to see what happens there, I'm sure they are on the list for a rethink.(edited)

selto_black [9:23 PM] i havent tried arty svip in a wr yet

selto_black[9:23 PM]i just know it is absolute shite for ratting due to cycle times

forsot [9:23 PM] dat alpha

selto_black [9:23 PM] you are either wasting damage on frigs

selto_black[9:24 PM]or wasting a second shot on cruisers

selto_black[9:24 PM]and the range dictation isnt nearly as nice on a svip

selto_black[9:27 PM]i should clarify that.

selto_black[9:28 PM]the ability to trade range for dps on the confessor is very good for its pve capabilities. Im also pretty sure it works nicely in pvp too.

scipioartelius [10:23 PM] joined #tactical-destroyers

ccp_fozzie [10:24 PM] I'm gonna log off for the night, but before I go I'll leave you with one of the better explanations of why we don't want to fall back on "buff AFs" as a solution for oppressive T3Ds. (From one of the best game design resources out there)

ccp_fozzie[10:24 PM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3b3hDvRjJA
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scipioartelius [10:24 PM] o/ will quickly read the history

selto_black [10:24 PM] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZnjwdStzUc
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selto_black[10:24 PM]the one that comes after that

sfm_hobb3s [10:34 PM] joined #tactical-destroyers. Also, @sardcaid joined, @gorski_car joined.

scipioartelius [10:49 PM] Nice article on Crossing Zebras Gorski. For others that haven't seen it yet, some thoughts: http://crossingzebras.com/refining-tactical-destroyers/
Tactical destroyers are a problem. You know it, and I know it. Although they’re extremely fun to fly and overall a great addition to the game, those who end up on the business end of a T3D usually don’t have much of a chance of coming through with their ship. With that in mind, CCP […]

gorski_car [10:51 PM] Thanks. I didn't have time to go very indepth on stuff like numbers. Nice coincident that Niden releases it the same day this group started

gorski_car[10:53 PM]This picture illustrate some problems with speed on these ships: http://puu.sh/kBn5o/9894278dcc.png (19KB)




forsot [10:56 PM] you would get a similar comparison of sigs as well

selto_black [10:59 PM] These charts make it appear that the fessor is the broken one.

selto_black[10:59 PM]Why is that not the case?

forsot [10:59 PM] those speeds dont completly represent end speed of the ship as mass plays into it as well when you have a prop mod

gorski_car [11:00 PM] the confessor loses some from armor tank

gorski_car[11:00 PM]unless you do active ofc

selto_black [11:01 PM] I tend to prefer active tank myself.

gorski_car [11:02 PM] svipul also does a shitton more damage due to shield tnak

selto_black [11:05 PM] 3mids does limit the gimmick of shield tanked amarr ships.

johndrees [11:12 PM] joined #tactical-destroyers. Also, @ascentior joined.

johndrees [11:13 PM] Hello guys :smiley:

scipioartelius [11:14 PM] Hey john

selto_black [11:14 PM] 7o

johndrees [11:23 PM] So, jumping right in with the conversation I've read so far, I can say that although the numbers in the chart do seem imply that the confessor is the most overpowered t3, I think there is a fairly clear consensus amongst the community that the svipul is actually further out of balance. I would estimate that one of the reasons that this is the case is that although they both rip apart frigates (really their intended purpose) the svipul, much more than the confessor, can engage heavier targets at close range with a solid chance of surviving. This is in part due to the fact that the confessor is heavily capacitor dependant where the svipul is not. A single medium neut represents a hurdle for a confessor where it is much less dangerous for a svipul.

chessur [11:27 PM] I feel

chessur[11:28 PM]that this conversation this far is just pople throwing out opinions on ships '

chessur[11:28 PM]'gut feelings' if you will

chessur[11:28 PM]Would it be a good idea

chessur[11:28 PM]for us to create a framework with which to base discussion off?

chessur[11:28 PM]Something to the effect of:

chessur[11:28 PM]* What are the roles of T3Ds inside the game

ascentior [11:28 PM] Obviously that data is very specific and not 'real world' - the table above (edited)

chessur [11:29 PM] * How does each T3D bring a unique flavor to that role

chessur[11:29 PM]* And how can the mode switch / versatility of the T3D be used still as a concept to fill said role

chessur[11:29 PM]I guess with these basic questions, I was just wondering what you guys thought the answer would be

chessur[11:30 PM]I think that we need to be arguing from the same basic idea / understanding of the T3D inside eve

chessur[11:30 PM]before we worry about their function / stats of fulfilling that role

chessur[11:31 PM]I hope that makes sense

johndrees [11:34 PM] Ok, that sounds fine.

chessur [11:34 PM] Does anyone else have any 'framework' questions

chessur[11:34 PM]that we could all talk about, before we start talking about the nuts and bolts of the T3D?

chessur[11:34 PM]otherwise i feel like we are shooting in the dark

chessur[11:35 PM]Perhaps 'goal setting' would be a better word for it?

ascentior [11:35 PM] There should be multiple angles for those roles as well

ascentior[11:36 PM]for example, the role of a T3D in FW, is very different to the role of a T3D in null, etc.

chessur [11:36 PM] so

chessur[11:36 PM]how do you think they differ so much?

gorski_car [11:37 PM] because of how FW works where you can force a fight to start at 0

ascentior [11:37 PM] Excluding the fact that they are likely to be excluded from small complexes, they are still able to be used in more controlled scenarios

gorski_car [11:38 PM] and there are usualyl no ongrid warps in fw

chessur [11:38 PM] So, assuming that they are not inside small complex

chessur[11:38 PM]and a force start on zero

chessur[11:38 PM]deadspace... would there be anything else?

johndrees [11:38 PM] Yeah, special rules imposed by the grid and gate mechanics make fw use distinct from average nullsec use. (edited)

johndrees[11:39 PM]Maybe more succinctly, it's easier to play defensively in FW because you can force fights to come to you.

chessur [11:40 PM] deadspace is nice for on grid separation

chessur[11:40 PM]however

chessur[11:40 PM]starting at 0

chessur[11:40 PM]aspect

chessur[11:40 PM]certainly that would be more of a discussion between kiting vs brawling

chessur[11:40 PM]not really a T3D problem no?

johndrees [11:41 PM] Well there is a significant difference in each t3d starting at 0.

chessur [11:41 PM] ohh?

chessur[11:41 PM]how so?

ascentior [11:42 PM] I'll agree that that is down to fitting.

ascentior[11:44 PM]But yes, kiting vs brawling is a significant difference in FW than null sec, but also exacerbated by T3Ds ability to do one while still having a ?_decent_? protection against the other

chessur [11:44 PM] i am not sure I agree with you

chessur[11:44 PM]Could you explain the protection of brawling vs kiting in a T3D?

ascentior [11:45 PM] Which way. If you are 10mn T3D you can speed mode your way out of pretty much any brawler's range. If you are Brawl in a T3D you can sniper mode and still hit kiters

johndrees [11:45 PM] Well in the sense that at close range you are more likely to have neuts applied to you than if you are kiting. That places extra emphasis on your ship not requiring capacitor as a means to deal damage and tank. Therefore shields, missiles, autocannons have an advantage.

ascentior [11:46 PM] Not 100% effective, but more effective than other ships can do the same

chessur [11:46 PM] so if you have a 10mn AB

chessur[11:46 PM]you can still be brawled down

chessur[11:46 PM]can you not?

chessur[11:46 PM]an MWD scram / web ship

chessur[11:46 PM]can still catch you

johndrees [11:47 PM] Well oversized prop mod is maybe a tangent at this point. That is if you want to continue with the idea of a framework for the discussion.

chessur [11:47 PM] and most 10mn AB ships don't have the ability to kite / project damage in anyway

chessur[11:47 PM]no i do think that we should continue

chessur[11:47 PM]coming to a group consensus

chessur[11:47 PM]on what T3D's should do

chessur[11:47 PM]how they should do it

chessur[11:47 PM]and why they should do it with mode switch

chessur[11:47 PM]is the core of our conversation imo

chessur[11:47 PM]after that is ironed out

chessur[11:48 PM]we can then talk about numbers / function of that role in eve

chessur[11:48 PM]just IMo

chessur[11:48 PM]i could be way off base

ascentior [11:50 PM] were you simply asking questions to argue?

chessur [11:50 PM] NO

chessur[11:50 PM]i was asking questions simply to try and understand where you are coming from

chessur[11:50 PM]get in your head so to speak

chessur[11:50 PM]the 3 questions I just listed above

chessur[11:50 PM]is something that i think should be done by the group

chessur[11:50 PM]so that way we are all arguing from the same point about the topic of T3D

gorski_car [11:51 PM] 10mn t3ds were able to project and kite before the first nerf pass

gorski_car[11:51 PM]they still can but it is a bit less effective

chessur [11:51 PM] This was true
ascentior 
[11:55 PM]  
Added a Plain Text snippet: [Confessor, Brawl] 
[Confessor, Brawl]
Heat Sink II
'Refuge' Adaptive Nano Plating I
Damage Control II
400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
1MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner
Add Comment
Click to expand inline 19 lines

ascentior [11:56 PM] As an example, the fit listed (In true amarr, cap dependant style) can brawl and still hit things in kite range

selto_black [11:57 PM] I stated my headspace.

selto_black[11:58 PM]I like that brawl fit though ascentior.

selto_black[11:58 PM]I may play test that a bit on sisi tonight.


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October 8th
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ascentior [12:03 AM] By no means do I think any T3Ds are impossible to beat. On the contrary, most can be pretty hardly countered. And at least in the case of FW, a fleet of T3Ds in a small is just an expensive loss mail when people rock up in cheap fit dessies.

ascentior[12:05 AM]But the versatility of them - particularly the speed and multiple engagement ranges - is what makes them brilliant

syenna-celeste [12:08 AM] joined #tactical-destroyers

ascentior [12:16 AM] oh, another important part of FW, if you are outside of 30km from the 'button' (capture point that is near the warp in beacon), and you can't kill me, I still win (capture the site). So controlling that 30km is the ?_real_? aim of FW (although admittedly most people are there for kills) (edited)

scipioartelius [12:23 AM] I'm at work at the moment, so sort of lurking, but I like what Niden did with the speeds. Have started a Google Sheet that I'll share with everyone when I am home later that summarises a range of different data and extends the ships to include T1 and T2 Destroyers as well as Interceptors and Assault Frigates. Here is the base speed summary, but the sheet also includes sig radius and scan resolution and continue when I can throughout the day to put more attributes and bonused effects into it: http://puu.sh/kCj6Q/a71637b311.png(24KB)




ascentior [12:34 AM] Have I got my numbers wrong? Looks like some in that table include lvl 5 skills and some don't?

scipioartelius [12:56 AM] It's base attributes for each ship. The skills are for the T3D, but not the others. I didn't double check Niden's values to be certain, but will do so

scipioartelius[12:59 AM]actually, I'll go double check them all using PyFA. You're right

scipioartelius[12:59 AM]I was looking in game rather than out of game. So will update all appropriately

ascentior [1:08 AM] The issue I usually find with raw data like this is that those numbers were chosen knowing that other things effect the speed of the ship. Like armor plates vs shield extenders, etc.

ascentior[1:09 AM]Also ship mass/role will change the prop mod 'real world' result

scipioartelius [1:09 AM] totally. Fits and skills are always going to have an effect. It's not going to show edge cases, just glaring issues if they exist

scipioartelius[1:12 AM]I expect all of us in this group will know what the glaring issues are, so if someone suggests a particular change, then the stats provide a quick way to see quantitatively what effect that will have and how it compares to other ships and classes of ship. Maybe not useful to anyone. I personally like to look at the numbers, but that's me

selto_black [1:12 AM] any of you pvpers wanna come tear me a new one on sisi?

sardcaid [1:15 AM] Chessur's assertion regarding "group consensus on what T3D's should do, how they should do it, and relation to mode switch" is a good starting point on any meaningful balance discussion.  Regardless of where our individual experience or motives are, I think we can come to some level of agreement on what T3D should and shouldn't be.

sardcaid[1:16 AM]It might be a good idea to start a google doc or similar to log focal points of this discussion, and work out finer details in dialogue here.

sardcaid[1:17 AM]Slack's archiving is very tedious to scroll through, especially considering time constraints / time zones of this group

selto_black [1:24 AM] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w
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selto_black[1:24 AM]this is something id like to see discussed.

selto_black [1:39 AM] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea6UuRTjkKs
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sardcaid [1:45 AM] I'll bite - regarding imbalance, T3D's take that on by filling a niche that's only seen with T3C - they have options well beyond the defined roles of other T2 or faction ships.  They're by design interesting and unbalanced as there is no other ship in the game that can match their adaptability.  The issue we run into in their current iteration is their base attributes, combined with the benefits yielded from each mode

sardcaid[1:47 AM]T3D's are great fun and a good addition to the game - I think ship 'stances' are amazing fun.  I don't think anyone can argue against that.  The issues we run into are the incredibly powerful modes that the ships have, in excess of what we'd expect out of any T2 specialist ship

sardcaid[1:47 AM]this is combined with very powerful base attributes

johndrees [1:49 AM] I completely agree with the statement sard. I'd add that it is important to consider that part of what makes them imbalanced is that they are very inexpensive for how good they are. A t3d at twice it's current cost would still be worth it for players looking for a ship to full their current roll but they wouldn't be competing directly in the price range of t2 and faction frigates.

sfm_hobb3s [1:49 AM] Ever since t3d's came out I have loved flying them.  It really boils down to the versatility.  It's actually the first ship in Eve that for me has the capability of defending myself (as in, by myself) and still being able to contribute to fleets of nearly any size.  I've gone to hell and back in my 1mn mwd beam confessor.  And for once, I could actually make a difference, not being just an F1 button masher.  Back in Black Legion fleets would get called and no matter the doctrine, the FC's were completely fine with me showing up in my confessor.  They knew I'd be hazing E-war and killing or keeping the tackle away.  And they could count on me not to die.  Well, not often anyways.  1400+ kills with likely less than 10 losses is fantastic.  So much so I'm not phased at all by the upcoming insurance nerf.   You might think that versatility is overpowered when it comes to small or medium gang action, but for big fleet fights, especially in null, its crucial.  Just like real world snipers I was often firing and relocating (warping around), and many times would get sucked into a hostile bubble.  I did get killed a few times this way, but more often then not was saved by the ships versatility (switching to prop mode).

selto_black [1:53 AM] The versatility of these ships should remain through any nerfs we come to a consensus on, However, i do believe that the svipuls and the confessors modes need new and unique modifiers to be both useable and within perfect imbalance.

selto_black[1:54 AM]Destroyers are supposed to be frigate killers.

selto_black[1:54 AM]thats what they do

johndrees [1:54 AM] So, in my opinion increasing t3d price may help encourage more diversity in pvp ships. With its current price and capabilities the ship is a nearly unbeatable value. Changing nothing else I would suspect a price increase would help  make other ships a good option.

sardcaid [1:55 AM] insurance is being reduced to T2 payouts

johndrees [1:55 AM] I know.

selto_black [1:56 AM] now that td3s are being removed from small plexes and having their insurance nuked, we need to make sure that their uses arent useless in them selves

sardcaid [1:56 AM] T3Ds are being removed from small outposts?

johndrees [1:56 AM] I think that's a good step but I bet more people base purchases on the ships price the insurance payout.

selto_black [1:56 AM] so one question id like answered is should a destroyer be able to kill a cruiser reliably.

johndrees [1:57 AM] I think the answer is no.

sardcaid [1:57 AM] I know I very much consider cost of a ship after insurance as a significant factor for regular PvP in a ship

sardcaid[1:57 AM]I agree for what T3D currently offer 30-40 mil is far too reasonable, however

selto_black [1:58 AM] I can never remember to insure my ships >.>

sardcaid [1:58 AM] I don't know if that's a bad thing after changes

fintarue [1:58 AM] joined #tactical-destroyers

sardcaid [1:58 AM] hey fin

johndrees [1:59 AM] Hello

sardcaid [1:59 AM] @selto_black: where was it confirmed that T3D are to be removed from small outposts?

selto_black [1:59 AM] Day 4 summit minuets i thought

ascentior [1:59 AM] I think I'm in the wrong room, is this a streaming convention :simple_smile:

sardcaid [2:00 AM] The revolution shall be televised!

fintarue [2:00 AM] Howdy howdy

fintarue[2:00 AM]Sard, it was in a forum thread

selto_black [2:00 AM] 7o

fintarue [2:00 AM] about the t3d

scipioartelius [2:01 AM] https://ccpfocusgroups.slack.com/archives/tactical-destroyers/p1444269563000277
sardcaid
@selto_black: where was it confirmed that T3D are to be removed from small outposts?
Oct 8th at 1:59 AM

johndrees [2:01 AM] Alright so which t3d are regularly killing cruisers? I know it's fully possible with each one in its own regard and we may not have available statistics but I can absolutely say that when I am out pvp'ing the only t3d I hesitate to engage in something like a cynabal is the svipul.

fintarue [2:01 AM] Same post where he said about the lowered costs of insurance

sardcaid [2:01 AM] You're the first I've heard about T3D removal from small outposts, so that'd be nice as a confirmation.  Most players are uniform that T3D aren't fun in small outposts competition wise

ascentior [2:01 AM] https://ccpfocusgroups.slack.com/archives/tactical-destroyers/p1444269563000277
Fozzie said it in the announcement for the focus group attendees

scipioartelius [2:01 AM] Summit day 4 and Fozzie mentioned it here earlier

sardcaid [2:01 AM] ah, I didn't follow up much on E-O

sardcaid[2:02 AM]cool

fintarue [2:02 AM] I thin it would also be important for us to detail the things about the ships that need worked, whether cause too strong, or weak if any

sardcaid [2:02 AM] yeah, that's a common sentiment fin

johndrees [2:02 AM] Ha

sardcaid [2:03 AM] I think we should be putting together a google doc soon for that

fintarue [2:03 AM] That's what I was about to suggest

ascentior [2:04 AM] Discussion about how we discuss > discussion about what we should discuss > discussing the topic

ascentior[2:05 AM]I ?_hope_? CCP have a bit of a structured plan for this focus group, and these first few hours (until they are back at work) is probably safe to spend just ripping on.. er... getting to know each other

sardcaid [2:06 AM] well

forsot [2:06 AM] ccp_fozzie [1:43 PM] 
Once the majority of people have arrived I'll start asking some questions to get us going

sardcaid [2:07 AM] I'd like to think that we're collectively mature enough to agree on some structure, and be able to organize that with or without CCP aid

johndrees [2:07 AM] Cool

johndrees[2:07 AM]So this is all just warm up.

sardcaid [2:07 AM] sure

ascentior [2:08 AM] Yeah, I agree we ?_can_?. And I suppose if it is too far from what CCP want to achieve, how they intended this proceeding, they can just say 'thanks but no thanks'

scipioartelius [2:09 AM] Forming/storming/norming......it's going to happen, but I expect we'll move through it quickly

sardcaid [2:13 AM] Yeah, this is very much a think tank effort

johndrees [2:35 AM] Indeed.

scipioartelius [2:45 AM] I'll start a google doc and send a share link to everyone so we can collaboratively update it

johnnytwelvebore [7:08 AM] Just skimmed the comments from last night. All sounds positive so far. Suggest next step is to make a framework for what we want to discuss as someone mentioned otherwise this will just turn into a rambling mess. Keeping comments on topic will really help once this starts.

johnnytwelvebore[7:11 AM]Secondly I would suggest some testing on Sisi because we all have our own views about what T3Ds can and can't do, these opinions vary and even some very short tests could establish a benchmark and give us a baseline to start our comparison.

johnnytwelvebore[7:12 AM]Lastly I think we should get the idea that we all here to suggest nerfs slightly out of our heads. My view is that we need to find a unique drawback related to the versatility along the same lines as the skillpoint loss for T3 cruisers, along with what will probably be some small nerfs. (edited)

ascentior [7:43 AM] Yeah I think structure is an obvious first step. But is nice to whet the whistle with a few opinionated posts first :relaxed:

ascentior[7:45 AM]I think sp loss was always a wierd and arbitrary penalty. For those that losing an expensive set up isn't a hard enough hit, they can afford the small (smaller thanks the the expensive implants that can equally afford) set back. For those where losing even a 500m cruiser is a big hit, they would also be set back further (less likely to be able to splash on training implant)
scipioartelius 
[7:56 AM]  
 Shared a file 

CCP Focus Group - Tactical Destroyers
Document from Google DriveClick to open in Google Drive

Add Comment

scipioartelius [7:57 AM] Just an initial draft at a structure to keep our various opinions/thoughts/reasoning on different issues in a single place

scipioartelius[7:57 AM]Should be fairly self explanatory and anyone can edit the document. We can change the format later on if something else will work better

scipioartelius[8:01 AM]I've included Mode Switching as the first topic, which was proposed by Chessur as a place we could perhaps start, but if anyone has any new major area to discuss, it can be taken into the next topic, etc.

gorski_car [9:14 AM] Has there been any thoughts about changing how swapping from speed mode to another mode lets you pretty much insta warp?

johnnytwelvebore [9:22 AM] Some sort of delay would cover that aspect?

ccp_fozzie [9:38 AM] set the channel purpose: Main Channel for the Tactical Destroyer focus group. Forum thread at: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=449910 Remember: Everything said in this channel will be made available to the public.

ccp_fozzie [9:39 AM] Morning folks

syenna-celeste [9:41 AM] 'eyy

chessur [10:05 AM] O/ fozzie

johndrees [10:22 AM] Good morning

gorski_car [10:27 AM] yeah johnny a delay would sort that issue out nicely

hoodie-mafia [10:56 AM] I think a delay would actually solve more things, as it means you need to guess in advance if you are going to need a different mode

scipioartelius [11:10 AM] hey Fozzie

scipioartelius[11:10 AM]hey all

scipioartelius[11:11 AM]https://ccpfocusgroups.slack.com/archives/tactical-destroyers/p1444297129000326
CCP Fozzieccp_fozzie
@ccp_fozzie set the channel purpose: Main Channel for the Tactical Destroyer focus group. Forum thread at: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=449910 Remember: Everything said in this channel will be made available to the public.
Oct 8th at 9:38 AM

scipioartelius[11:11 AM]I'll put it out there that for me, there isn't anything particularly OP about that aspect and it is one of the unique things about T3D that makes them fun. I don't see a need to change that personally

scipioartelius[11:12 AM]wrong copy

scipioartelius[11:12 AM]https://ccpfocusgroups.slack.com/archives/tactical-destroyers/p1444295686000324
gorski_car
Has there been any thoughts about changing how swapping from speed mode to another mode lets you pretty much insta warp?
Oct 8th at 9:14 AM

scipioartelius[11:12 AM]that one

scipioartelius[11:12 AM]too late

syenna-celeste [11:17 AM] It's something that's annoying to deal with but it isn't such a pressing issue as the 'svipul scourge'.

syenna-celeste[11:18 AM]And the Jackdaw/Hecate are both capable of the fabled <2seconds into warp just by sitting in propulsion mode, so there isn't even any 'skill' (not that it's a difficult thing to do) involved.

syenna-celeste[11:20 AM]?_that said_?, putting a delay on mode switches would make the decision to change modes more meaningful and might be a big deal with other changes that were spitballed earlier/elsewhere. But if a delay is put in there definitely needs to be some kind of obvious visual showing when the new bonuses come into effect, or maybe the transition could be staggered over the whole ~10 second animation/cooldown?

syenna-celeste[11:21 AM]Just having it suddenly kick in after a delay would be super clunky.

syenna-celeste[11:22 AM]Should probably also clarify above about the <2 second into warp of the jdaw and hecate: This is probably too powerful and makes travelling in lowsec virtually risk free for zero effort or penalty.

scipioartelius [11:23 AM] Yeah I don't have a problem with making the cooldown longer. 30 seconds even is going to make it a much more critical decision and limit the ability to go sharpshooter -> propulsion -> defence in order to quickly lock the target, close on it and then tank the fight. The longer cooldown is going to make is harder to tank in the period before switching to defence mode, which may limit the ability to use that approach

scipioartelius[11:24 AM]obviously 30s is just an arbitrary value. Not pushing for that.

syenna-celeste [11:25 AM] Mmmyeah. I don't think it would need to be an earthshatteringly huge increase to the cooldown, even +3-5 seconds would be plenty.

scipioartelius [11:27 AM] yes

selto_black [11:30 AM] What about stripping all bonuses during the transition?

selto_black[11:31 AM]Instead of further increasing the timer you have to make the choice of whether the increased stats in 10 seconds is worth loosing the bonus you currently have.

syenna-celeste [11:32 AM] I don't dislike the idea but it would hurt a Hecate ?*a lot*? more than a Svipul for instance.

selto_black [11:32 AM] How so?

syenna-celeste [11:33 AM] Power of base hull vs power of bonuses. The svipul would be usable if you gave it sharpshooter mode and made those permanent stats. The Hecate.. No. Those are the most extreme examples but 10 seconds is a very long time to be left floating.

syenna-celeste[11:34 AM]I didn't put that very well. My point is some of them rely on the mode bonuses (andr ightfully) a lot more than others.

syenna-celeste[11:36 AM]My entire perception of the problem is based on the Confessor and Svipul particularly being good ships before the bonuses factor in, which stripping the bonuses during transition would only magnify.

scipioartelius [11:37 AM] When the T3D were first proposed by CCP, there was talk of the modes providing utility but not being the strongest in any one thing. So they were going to be jack of all trades but master of none type ships that had stength in their flexibility. Seems that removing their bonuses in the transition just makes them weak more than versatile

ccp_fozzie [11:38 AM] What we would definitely want to avoid (antigoal) would be having our changes discourage people from mode switching and creating more situations where you want to pick one mode and stick with it for a fight

selto_black [11:40 AM] A situation probably more common in pvp than pve I'll admit.

syenna-celeste [11:41 AM] @ccp_fozzie: Is it unreasonable of me to ask what you personally see as being the problem children of the T3D's? Are you especially (un)happy with any of them more than the others?

ccp_fozzie [11:42 AM] as a whole class, the fact that they have reduced perceived choice in ship type is a problem (basically people feel that flying other small ships is a significantly less viable choice)

ccp_fozzie[11:43 AM]as far as individual ships, the Svipul remains the outlier, both in feedback and in total usage

ccp_fozzie[11:43 AM]I'll probably toss you guys some usage stats this afternoon so you can be looking at the same data I am

selto_black [11:44 AM] Awesome. How hard would it be to pull pve data for :t3: destryoers?

selto_black[11:45 AM]That's something I'd like to look at.

syenna-celeste [11:45 AM] That would be an interesting read. Could you maybe include stats for T1 destroyers and assault frigates before/after T3D releases as well? (edited)

chessur [11:57 AM] T3 destroyers are (for the most part)  completely unkillable by anything destroyer and down

chessur[11:58 AM]That is why they have pushed other ships out.

selto_black [11:58 AM] Solo? Or microgang?

chessur [11:59 AM] Throw in instawarp to protect you from gate camps, and the fact that they are so cheap

selto_black [11:59 AM] If solo, isn't that the point of the ship?

chessur [11:59 AM] And that their problem

chessur[11:59 AM]Wait what?

chessur[11:59 AM]No i dont think it is the poiny

chessur[11:59 AM]Point *

scipioartelius [12:00 PM] No, I don't think that's the point either

chessur [12:00 PM] Destroyers, afs anf even dictors can be killed by frigates

chessur[12:00 PM]Provided the frigate is flown well

forsot [12:01 PM] Thats only half true, thats more an artifact of having high resists and most being active tanked i know a guy who has killed confessors with atrons because they were buffer tanked

scipioartelius [12:01 PM] no solo ship is a pwn mobile on it's own. Every ship has strengths and weaknesses that mean in some solo situations it will be strong and in others it will be weak. With the T3D, especially the Svipul, it;s just strong by comparison to destroyers and frigates

chessur [12:01 PM] Yes. Some ships are much stronger than average

chessur[12:02 PM]T3ds and orthrus are some examples of ships that are flat out better than anything else in their class

forsot [12:03 PM] are you trying to say my orthrus out running frigs isent balanced?

chessur [12:03 PM] Arbitrary t3d killed by frig does little in the face of a mountain of t3d kills and usage stats (edited)

chessur[12:03 PM]Indeed,  i may be saying that

hoodie-mafia [12:04 PM] inb4 Orthrus focus group

selto_black [12:04 PM] Inb4 cruiser focus group.

selto_black[12:05 PM]:t3: specifically

chessur [12:05 PM] Heh, who knows

johndrees [12:09 PM] Some ships should be better than others. It is just that in case of t3 destroyers it's not reflected in their price.

chessur [12:09 PM] Price is a poor balance point imo

johndrees [12:10 PM] That's probably because you have lots of money.

forsot [12:10 PM] Ya they took the gank of a t1 desi gave it a bit more then gave it slots and fitting to fit more tank then a cruiser

chessur [12:10 PM] And when you talk about ships better than others

forsot [12:10 PM] while haveing mode  switches that let you get the stats of an af on demand

chessur [12:11 PM] T3ds are significantly better,  than a huge majority of other small ships

chessur[12:12 PM]I think that is a problem.  Hence why we have this slack lol

selto_black [12:15 PM] Sigh, minmatar finnaly get one worthwhile ship...

johndrees [12:15 PM] Yes I'm aware of that. Specifically though look at the difference in price between the tech2 destroyers versus the cost of t3 destroyers when compared to the difference between t2 cruisers and t3 cruisers.

selto_black [12:17 PM] I'm trying to see the point you're trying to make, but then I remember how widespread :t3: cruiser usage is.

johndrees [12:18 PM] So for example if a fully fit Legion cost the same price as a fully fit zealot I think we would see a drop off in the use of zealots.

selto_black [12:18 PM] Maybe it's my bias of never having flown outside of communities with srp.

forsot [12:20 PM] legions are used significantly more then zealots regardless of price

hoodie-mafia [12:21 PM] I agree with Chessur that price is indeed a poor balancing point. We could just make them 150mil isk to build and call it quits but that would not change anything to the fact that they are in a way making other small ships (and assault ships in particular) obsolete

hoodie-mafia[12:21 PM]It would bring down the overall usage as not everyone has the isk to fly 150million isk+ frigates, but for all the wrong reasons

selto_black [12:21 PM] Balancing based on cost has never worked for ccp. Legions to zelots are one example, titans and supers are another.

chessur [12:22 PM] I think constantly comparing t3d overlap with afs is dangerous

selto_black [12:22 PM] The only hindrance making these ships more expensive would provide is to new players acquiring one.

chessur [12:22 PM] Afs were always weaker ships, even before t3d

selto_black [12:23 PM] From what I've read, af were mainly used in small plexes.

chessur [12:23 PM] The goal of this balance should not be to make afs viable, but t3d in line

johndrees [12:23 PM] Kinda, they were good at anti-interceptor stuff.

hoodie-mafia [12:23 PM] Well yea because everything around Assault Frigs has received buffs in the last years Chessur

chessur [12:24 PM] How is an af anti interceptor

chessur[12:24 PM]More than that hoodie

forsot [12:25 PM] in my experience most afs are tied to brawling rolls outside of the cali ones which the t3 ds are not do to extremely loose fitting

chessur [12:25 PM] Afs as a class will either be op to the extreme, or underwhelming.  But let's not get off topic - this is T3d slack :)

johndrees [12:25 PM] How is it not? Prior to the introduction of t3d it filled a role that was very similar to a destroyer but faster and with a smaller signature radius. Had you not flown an arty wolf at some point?

forsot [12:26 PM] arty wolves have no tank

forsot[12:26 PM]arty sviple does

chessur [12:26 PM] Yes i have flown wolves, retribution, vengeance

hoodie-mafia [12:26 PM] And just like all other small class ships. are tailored towards 1 thing

chessur [12:26 PM] But again we should not talk afs

selto_black [12:28 PM] So, how to build weaknesses into the svipuls and confessors modes.

hoodie-mafia [12:28 PM] Well I don't think we can avoid talking about them as they are supressed by T3Ds which are the subject, but they are not alone and destroyers/faction frigates also suffer

chessur [12:29 PM] I propose that new mode switch groups are discussed

johndrees [12:29 PM] Well if we are to discuss balance it is only natural that we discuss the thing we intend to balance in relation to other things. It provides context. I agree we shouldn't stray on a tangent.

chessur [12:29 PM] Andbi also propose that mode switch takes cap

selto_black [12:29 PM] Why?

chessur [12:29 PM] Because, currently it has no cost

chessur[12:29 PM]You can do it for free

hoodie-mafia [12:30 PM] It can cost you your ship:)

johndrees [12:30 PM] This also provides further advantage to the svipul since it relies less on cap.

selto_black [12:30 PM] You can switch subsystems for free too.

hoodie-mafia [12:30 PM] thats not really the same thing Selto

selto_black [12:30 PM] And fittings. (Devils advocate)

syenna-celeste [12:30 PM] @johndrees: The Svipul is the only one of the four that doesn't fit a cap booster basically as standard. It might need to sacrifice a mid.(edited)

selto_black [12:31 PM] So long as you have a Nestor/carrier/depot.

forsot [12:31 PM] thats a good way to die

forsot[12:31 PM]assuming mods dont activate properly.....

chessur [12:32 PM] That is one of the advantages of minny ships

chessur[12:32 PM]No cap guns, but weakest cap

chessur[12:32 PM]Amarr has strongest cap in game

johndrees [12:33 PM] Right, but in this case the clear outlier is the svipul so dreaming up ideas that provide further advantage to the ship are essentially the opposite of the goal.

syenna-celeste [12:33 PM] It doesn't need to be a change in a vacuum.

chessur [12:33 PM] It has weakest cap- ie. Few mode switch over a short period of time

selto_black [12:34 PM] Is the 33% buff to base speed a broken mechanic? Imo it is. I'd much rather see all prop modes bonus a specific type of prop mod rather than base stats.

chessur [12:34 PM] Speed, sharpshooter, defense modes

chessur[12:34 PM]Should be looked at.

chessur[12:35 PM]Can we come up with something betterfor mode switch?

chessur[12:35 PM]Something else?

forsot [12:35 PM] thats also relative when they have high base stats that already put them on par with smaller ships

johndrees [12:35 PM] Well the speed mode being swapped to mwd across the board would solve the oversized prop mod problem once and for all. I think it's less interesting but it does resolve that particular point of issue.

forsot [12:36 PM] that limits legitament 1mn fits tho

syenna-celeste [12:36 PM] You could also solve that by fixing the PG cost of artillery.

selto_black [12:37 PM] Making it an mwd bonus would kill wh pve john. I don't like that solution.

johndrees [12:37 PM] The mode switch is unique, interesting, and creates additional strategy. It is inherently compelling game play. Introducing changes that discourage the use of that feature is a pretty clear negative in my opinion.

johndrees[12:37 PM]@selto_black I don't like that solution either, I was simply point it out.

selto_black [12:38 PM] But syenna, that would mean that you could fit a reasonable tank on arty platforms...

hoodie-mafia [12:38 PM] Maybe the strenghts of each mode could be slowly increased over time, so you swap to propulsion and it takes 20 seconds to get the full 66% speed buff

hoodie-mafia[12:39 PM]But that gives another reason NOT to swap modes, which might be counter productive

johndrees [12:39 PM] Interesting

syenna-celeste [12:40 PM] We want more mode swapping. We also want t3ds not to step on the toes of T1, so weaker bonuses for a mode will need a stronger base hull to not ruin the ships. So stronger but more specific mode bonuses might be something to think about.

hoodie-mafia [12:40 PM] It would atleast make them less powerful, but it does not fix the fact that the modes themselves are still superior to what you get on other frigates

syenna-celeste [12:40 PM] Maybe more modes?

selto_black [12:40 PM] No.

hoodie-mafia [12:41 PM] Adding more modes without changing the current ones would just make them even stronger

selto_black [12:41 PM] The only mode that I can see as being useful would be an ewar mode. That would just break all semblance of balance.

syenna-celeste [12:41 PM] I didn't say anything about not changing current modes.

syenna-celeste[12:42 PM]Reduce base cap recharge, give a capacitor recharge mode. Separate sharpshooter into range mode and tracking mode.

selto_black [12:42 PM] That's clunky.

selto_black[12:42 PM]Very arbitrary.

selto_black[12:42 PM]Very mind warping to new players.

hoodie-mafia [12:43 PM] Im curious, do you all think the Jackdaw is a balanced ship?

syenna-celeste [12:43 PM] It's a 30 second suggestion. We want to encourage mode changes, which obviously isn't happening in its current state.

selto_black [12:43 PM] I would be even more overwhelmed in pvp than I already am.

johndrees [12:44 PM] I actually do think the jackdaw is pretty reasonable.

selto_black [12:44 PM] The jackdaw is a staple Caldari ship.

syenna-celeste [12:44 PM] Jackdaw is too strong in some areas, too weak in others. It scales exceptionally well when you throw money at it and tanks far harder than it should, but its damage output is in my mind far too low.

selto_black [12:44 PM] It sits there, it tanks, and it hits you no matter what.

hoodie-mafia [12:45 PM] How about mode switching boosts that are only temporary

johndrees [12:45 PM] Depends on the situation. It's slower than the other t3d's. It does indeed tank hard but because it is easier for larger ships to catch it's not nearly as op as the svipul.

hoodie-mafia [12:46 PM] As in, you swap to propulsion in the Svipul to get x seconds of 66% extra speed

selto_black [12:46 PM] No.

selto_black[12:46 PM]That kind of bonus would encourage mode switching yes, but only to abuse the extra stats.

selto_black[12:47 PM]Thus making the ships have temporary god mode.

hoodie-mafia [12:47 PM] what?

hoodie-mafia[12:47 PM]No I mean making the current bonus you get only temporary

hoodie-mafia[12:47 PM]instead of unlimited time, or until you change modes again

hoodie-mafia[12:48 PM]NOT on top of the previous bonuses

syenna-celeste [12:48 PM] You'd need to do a lot of playing with the base stats to get that into line but it's not a bad idea.

selto_black [12:48 PM] That feels "gamey"

syenna-celeste [12:48 PM] What if I ?_want_? to stay in one mode though?

selto_black [12:48 PM] ^

syenna-celeste [12:48 PM] Maybe a weaker passive bonus with a temporary extra.

hoodie-mafia [12:49 PM] Exactly

forsot [12:49 PM] i feel like in with speed mode on ones with direct speed buff that would break the orbit mechanic

selto_black [12:49 PM] Again people would abuse mode switches for the extra buffs.

hoodie-mafia [12:49 PM] so lets say that you get 33% passive speed bonus ibn propulsion mode on the Svipul, but 66% for the first X seconds after you swap

syenna-celeste [12:50 PM] No they wouldn't because you're losing the stats from the other mode when you switch.

hoodie-mafia [12:50 PM] they are not extra buffs Selto

syenna-celeste [12:50 PM] It's a full shift and it still has a cooldown. It makes sitting in one mode weaker and rewards well used switches.

selto_black [12:51 PM] They are when compared to the new long term buffs form your proposal.

syenna-celeste [12:51 PM] What long term buffs? Are we reading the same chat?

forsot [12:51 PM] having multiple changes to the ships velocity will make manual piloting them extremely key otherwise you are likely to die to larger ships vary quickly

syenna-celeste [12:52 PM] Is that not a good thing?

hoodie-mafia [12:52 PM] Thats a good thing!

forsot [12:52 PM] it makes use of orbit mechanic not a good option

forsot[12:52 PM]it makes it a bad one actually

hoodie-mafia [12:53 PM] In fact having 50% of the applied bonus from a mode be only temporary might work both to increase manual piloting, adds an incentive to swap modes more often and will slightly nerf them overall

forsot [12:53 PM] as when your speed changes your ship will decelerate and change direction

syenna-celeste [12:53 PM] the orbit mechanic is a bad option 80% of the time as it is

syenna-celeste[12:54 PM]there's no reason to eliminate what sounds like a fun and what might be a very neat solution just because one archaic mechanic that's already pretty much useless wouldn't play nicely with it

forsot [12:55 PM] it seems more like something to be gamed on players who dont understand mechanics is all

hoodie-mafia [12:56 PM] but thats not something limited to tactical destroyers

selto_black [12:56 PM] From the pve side of things, that arbitrary decrease in stats will lead to a massive inconsistency in how damage gets mitigated and applied.

hoodie-mafia [12:56 PM] Well it would make you want to switch modes more often

hoodie-mafia[12:57 PM]You would have to watch your buff timer and make sure you are not under that much pressure when your mode buff expires and is halved

hoodie-mafia[12:57 PM]whats so bad about that?

selto_black [12:57 PM] Which would be highly frustrating if I have to do it any more than I do now.

selto_black[12:58 PM]As it stands I'm switching modes every 45 sec to 1.5 min.

syenna-celeste [12:58 PM] What prompts you to switch modes?

selto_black [12:58 PM] Range dictation and neuts.

selto_black[12:59 PM]Well ewar.

johndrees [12:59 PM] Over what duration would you suggest the bonuses be reapplied/deminished?

selto_black [1:00 PM] For it to feel consistent in pve? ... I'd have to mull it over for awhile.

hoodie-mafia [1:01 PM] I would suggest 50% of the bonus to be applied over 30 sec

hoodie-mafia[1:01 PM]and 50% to be permanent

hoodie-mafia[1:01 PM]Or until mode swap, after which eveything resets

johndrees [1:02 PM] Ok, well I think in pvp it's a poor idea because of the rapid pace pvp takes place at. In 30 seconds the engagement may be over.

hoodie-mafia [1:02 PM] The numbers can be adjusted

hoodie-mafia[1:02 PM]The idea is usable

syenna-celeste [1:02 PM] We're not finalizing numbers here. That's not our job.

johndrees [1:03 PM] Well if you're going to propose an idea to have it discussed the numbers are relevant to said discussion.

hoodie-mafia [1:03 PM] I just think that it does exactly what Fozzie was looking for. It promotes manual piloting, requires a pilot to carefully watch buffs and it gives an incentive to swap modes

hoodie-mafia[1:04 PM]While making them slightly weaker overall

hoodie-mafia[1:04 PM]Johndrees that is why I gave example numbers

johndrees [1:05 PM] I know, and it's not an unrealistic figure. It points out a potential negative though.

selto_black [1:05 PM] It also grossly overcomplicates the mode switch mechanic by applying arbitrary timers. For a new player that's simply unreasonable.

syenna-celeste [1:06 PM] @hoodie-mafia: Would you want the bonus to be as strong as the passive? I'm not sure if I like that detail or not.

syenna-celeste[1:06 PM]@selto_black: If a new player can't handle what is really something very simple then maybe they should stick to flying derptrons.

syenna-celeste[1:06 PM]This is hardly the most obscure mechanic.

johndrees [1:07 PM] Ok, just to clarify what you guys are saying. Do you think the ship bonus should be applied over time after a mode switch or deminish over time after a mode switch?

chessur [1:07 PM] no i think that it is a poor idea

scipioartelius [1:07 PM] I don't like that idea either

hoodie-mafia [1:07 PM] It should dissipate when you switch

scipioartelius [1:07 PM] jsut seems overly complex

syenna-celeste [1:08 PM] instant change from one to the other. it was mentioned earlier but other changes are cleaner.

johndrees [1:08 PM] I'm not really into it either but we should completely hear the fellas out.

selto_black [1:08 PM] What is simple to you is not simple to everyone. Keeping track of d-scan, heat, distance to target, and all the other myriad of things for a newer player is hard.

syenna-celeste [1:09 PM] We're talking about a temporary bonus applied on top of what would be (weaker than now) passive mode bonuses for a short time after switching to a mode.

hoodie-mafia [1:09 PM] Noone is forcing a new player into a T3D, thats why its Tech 3, it comes after you learn to fly T1 ships

hoodie-mafia[1:10 PM]Yes syenna-celeste , so the overall effect would be the same for X seconds but would be halved after that time

syenna-celeste [1:10 PM] So if you're in prop mode with +20% speed, you change to defensive and lose 20% speed, but gain 15% resists permanently + 15% resists for 20 seconds or something.

johndrees [1:10 PM] Kinda, although with such a light training time into such an effective ship...it's hard to argue that they aren't for new players.

chessur [1:10 PM] I really dislike the slow decay idea

hoodie-mafia [1:11 PM] Exactly syenna-celeste

hoodie-mafia[1:11 PM]It doesnt have to be slow decay Chessur

hoodie-mafia[1:11 PM]It could be a 50% dropoff after X seconds

syenna-celeste [1:11 PM] Then you switch back, gain 20% speed + 20% speed for 20 seconds while losing ?_all of the resist bonus_? that you got from defensive. And these changes are all instant like they are now.

syenna-celeste[1:11 PM]Not decay. Just a drop.

hoodie-mafia [1:11 PM] With its own visual

syenna-celeste [1:11 PM] Or timer.

selto_black [1:11 PM] But t3ds offer such an interesting touchstone for new players. It allowes them to be able to feel the difference that adding more tank/speed/projection to their fit could do without having to actually change their fit.

hoodie-mafia [1:11 PM] yea

johndrees [1:12 PM] Hmm, sounds kinda lame and it is a lot to keep track of for anyone, especially a new player.

chessur [1:12 PM] what if mode switch

hoodie-mafia [1:12 PM] New players shouldn't fly Tech 3 ships until they learn how to do other things first by flying simpler ships

chessur [1:13 PM] was 3 different playstyle choices

chessur[1:13 PM]ie

chessur[1:13 PM]kite mode, brawl mode, ewar mode

selto_black [1:13 PM] Why hoodie?

selto_black[1:13 PM]Why should a newer player be limited to what older players were forced to do?

chessur [1:13 PM] switching mode will change your ship bonus accordingly. kite has speed / projection. Brawl has tank / dps and ewar has bonuses to racial ewar

hoodie-mafia [1:14 PM] Because this is an advanced ship, its in the name! You cannot limit everything for new player experience

hoodie-mafia[1:14 PM]Holy cow chessur breaks down the door

selto_black [1:14 PM] It's also a destroyer.

syenna-celeste [1:14 PM] There's nothing stopping a new player from flying one, but it will take practice and knowledge to get the most out of them. This is not a bad thing.

hoodie-mafia [1:15 PM] That would require a whole lot of theoryzing behind it Chessur, but I would love to hear it

destoya [1:15 PM] The stats/bonuses make t3d powerful to the point that they prop up subpar practice and knowledge in my opinion

selto_black [1:16 PM] Is that a bad thing destoya?

hoodie-mafia [1:16 PM] Selto, the fact that it is a destroyer says nothing for its new player status, an interdictor is also a destroyer yet it is very far away from being a new player friendly ship

destoya [1:16 PM] Not necessarily

johndrees [1:18 PM] @chessur I like the idea but because brawling and kiting fits are different in the modules that they use, how does this idea encourage mode switching during an engagement? Currently if I am in a beam confessor I have to slow down and risk getting chased down in order to dps targets from long range. If I had long range and speed at the same time I would never switch modes unless I got scrammed and it was a last ditch effort to try and survive.

chessur [1:19 PM] true

chessur[1:19 PM]however if you had a more all around fit

chessur[1:19 PM]it could help  you push into a role you need

chessur[1:20 PM]if you try to make a kiting fit, ofc you are going to stay in kite mode

chessur[1:20 PM]asyou would now

selto_black [1:20 PM] T3d imo offer players a gateway to learn the skills needed to start working their way up the difficulty curve. They get the benefits of changing their stats without having to change their fit.

chessur [1:20 PM] normally a kiting confessor is in speed mode, and will switch to sharp shooter at times

chessur[1:20 PM]but has no reason to go into defense mode

chessur[1:20 PM]this goes back to how you fit your ship

chessur[1:20 PM]do you choose to be very specialized, and only use one mode?

selto_black [1:20 PM] This I think encourages players to learn to fit properly.

johndrees [1:20 PM] Well, that's what I'm telling you. Right now, it's better to switch modes when kiting. It would not be if those modes were one in the same.

chessur [1:20 PM] or fit your ship to be more flexible and take advantage of the other switching more readily

hoodie-mafia [1:21 PM] Except that specializing is almost always better Chessur

chessur [1:22 PM] and your point?

hoodie-mafia [1:22 PM] How would you bring it down to a point where taking a more flexible fitting (and losing specialization) is actually worth it?

chessur [1:22 PM] That is the pilots choice

hoodie-mafia [1:22 PM] My point is that everyone will still just specialize

chessur [1:22 PM] you already see the specialization

chessur[1:22 PM]an arty svip / beam confessor are never brawling

chessur[1:22 PM]they never want to be brawling

chessur[1:23 PM]same for a pulse confessor or AC svipul

chessur[1:23 PM]they are not kiting

johndrees [1:23 PM] Right, so what you've suggested is simply a huge buff to those specialized ship fits.

chessur [1:23 PM] yep

johndrees [1:23 PM] Lol

chessur [1:23 PM] tone down

chessur[1:24 PM]the other problems

chessur[1:24 PM]IE. the insane tracking / tank / dps of a kiting ship

johndrees [1:24 PM] Alright then let's buff all the t3d! Case closed.

chessur [1:24 PM] the crazy speed of a brawling one

chessur[1:24 PM]make more severe trade offs

chessur[1:24 PM]like you see in the jackdaw

chessur[1:24 PM]or hecate

hoodie-mafia [1:26 PM] Does that not lead the usage of just a single mode to strenghten your fit of choice

hoodie-mafia[1:26 PM]As in, I fit blasters and a heavy tank on my Hecate so I will simply use only the Defensive mode

johndrees [1:26 PM] Yep

chessur [1:26 PM] if you choose to fit you ship that way

chessur[1:26 PM]then yes it can

chessur[1:26 PM]that is how it is now

chessur[1:26 PM]however

chessur[1:26 PM]if you have a more variable fit

chessur[1:26 PM]then other modes could be used

johndrees [1:27 PM] Well people specialize now, but they still switch modes.

hoodie-mafia [1:27 PM] I could be wrong, but my first feeling is that it will make the problem worse

syenna-celeste [1:29 PM] I disagree with the remodelling modes completely The existing modes are close to being on the money but need tuning. The Jackdaw and Hecate are in a pretty good place by most accounts, and you need to switch modes regularly to get the most out of both of them. The Svipul is too strong because its modes are gravy to an already strong base hull.

syenna-celeste[1:29 PM]Solution: More stats on the modes, less stats on the hull.

syenna-celeste[1:29 PM]Make people choose.

selto_black [1:35 PM] ^ this.

johndrees [1:35 PM] Yep

syenna-celeste [1:38 PM] Still doesn't discourage sitting in one mode though. And I like Hoodie's suggestion for solving that.

johndrees [1:40 PM] People already switch modes to get the most out of the ship. An artificially imposed reason to switch does not take into account the context of an actual engagement and in my opinion would result in a paralysis of choice problem where people would simply accept the drawback and stay in one mode. (edited)

hoodie-mafia [1:41 PM] Which in turn makes them much more in line with other small ships does it not? Having only half the bonus makes them a lot weaker

chessur [1:43 PM] I still feel that having to 'give' something (Cap for example) to switch modes

chessur[1:43 PM]could go a long way in helping to balance these ships

johndrees [1:44 PM] I think when they are engaging other small ships the fight is mostly over before the deminishing bonus would come into play. Unless you make the time to effect shorter which imposes an even more horrible option, the requirement to switch to a mode you do not want simply to switch back as soon as possible to retain the bonus.

hoodie-mafia [1:47 PM] How is it fair to judge that option on T3D vs frigate fights though? I feel like wanting a t1 or T2 frigate or destroyer to go toe to toe with a T3D is not a good balancing point

hoodie-mafia[1:48 PM]Unless its 2v1 or more in which case the 30 seconds would be limiting

johndrees [1:50 PM] I dont, I think t3d should essentially beat down frigates almost every time assuming both are fit and flown equally well. The problem in my opinion is actually the survivability of the svipul against larger ships.

syenna-celeste [1:52 PM] What is the point of anything labelled a destroyer (a class whos express purpose is to ruin the days of frigates) being easy to 1v1 in a frigate

johndrees [1:52 PM] Agreed.

chessur [1:52 PM] if you make a destroyer that can destroy all frigates with ease

chessur[1:52 PM]then you are creating the BC era a few years ago

chessur[1:53 PM]except this time, its just for frigates

hoodie-mafia [1:53 PM] I dont think they meant it should automatically destroy frigs

chessur [1:53 PM] the mobility + projection of T3D's is oppressive to frigates

syenna-celeste [1:53 PM] Not saying all frigates, but the talk of a single frigate being able to take on a t3d is ludicrous.

hoodie-mafia [1:53 PM] just that it is ok if there is an inherent advantage for the T3d

syenna-celeste [1:53 PM] ^

chessur [1:53 PM] A frigate can kill sabre / eris with little problem

syenna-celeste [1:54 PM] But it isn't a level playing field is the point.

hoodie-mafia [1:54 PM] But most frigates will get destroyed by one

johndrees [1:54 PM] Well, many of the frigates enjoy specialized roles which give them purpose. The assault frigate is the black sheep in that regard.

syenna-celeste [1:54 PM] It's great that a frigate can kill a destroyer, but it will be tilted against the frigate. That's always been the case and it should stay that way.

chessur [1:54 PM] in the T3Ds case however

chessur[1:54 PM]there isd no tilt

chessur[1:54 PM]just a cliff

hoodie-mafia [1:55 PM] because its 2 steps up?

hoodie-mafia[1:55 PM]Have you seen an Omen solo a proteus yet chessur?

chessur [1:55 PM] lol

chessur[1:55 PM]we are talking about cruisers now?

hoodie-mafia [1:56 PM] No I am making the comparison of a class being 2 steps higher

hoodie-mafia[1:56 PM]Frig > T2 frig > T3D

hoodie-mafia[1:56 PM]Ofcourse it is a cliff

hoodie-mafia[1:56 PM]Is that a bad thing?

chessur [1:58 PM] I am not saying T1 frig all of the time

chessur[1:58 PM]just in general. Faction / pirate included

syenna-celeste [2:00 PM] Short of deleting the whole class I can't think of many ways to solve that particular cliff.

chessur [2:00 PM] i just feel that absolutes are bad for gameplay

selto_black [2:02 PM] The sentinel would like a word?

chessur [2:03 PM] what about it?

johndrees [2:03 PM] Haha

chessur [2:03 PM] i can think of 3 frigs off the top of my head that kill it

chessur[2:03 PM]very easily

selto_black [2:04 PM] The fact that the sentinel can counter all t3ds except the daw fairly easily.

chessur [2:04 PM] you think so?

selto_black [2:04 PM] I do, though you would have better experience in the area.

selto_black[2:05 PM]I'd need to play test to figure it out.

chessur [2:05 PM] svipul can kill one easily

chessur[2:05 PM]jackdaw

selto_black [2:05 PM] Even under TD?

chessur [2:05 PM] and a confessor that is fitting a cap booster

chessur[2:05 PM]should also have no trouble

chessur[2:05 PM]same with hecate

chessur[2:06 PM]and yes, even under td

chessur[2:06 PM]sentinel has no tank, limited speed, and no dps

chessur[2:06 PM]by itself, its really not that scary

hoodie-mafia [2:06 PM] like it should have

hoodie-mafia[2:06 PM]its not a combat ship

chessur [2:06 PM] i have killed crucifiers with slicers very easily

chessur[2:06 PM]for example

chessur[2:06 PM]tds are nice

chessur[2:06 PM]but unless you have range control

chessur[2:06 PM]your tds mean nothing

selto_black [2:06 PM] Fair point.

chessur [2:07 PM] ie. there is counterplay

johndrees [2:08 PM] dramiels are great at killing crucifiers as well.

hoodie-mafia [2:09 PM] No you are right, I guess we differ on opinions though. I think a T2 frigate (like the Sentinel) should have a hard time vs any T3D

johndrees [2:09 PM] They do currently have a hard time.

johndrees[2:09 PM]So much so that you see fewer frigates than previously. Which is part of why we're all here.

syenna-celeste [2:10 PM] You're seeing less frigates because they replace frigates not because they kill them.

hoodie-mafia [2:10 PM] ^

johndrees [2:11 PM] Yeah, I got that...

selto_black [2:12 PM] What's the training time difference between T2 frigs and T3ds? Just to sit. No guns no tank.

johndrees [2:12 PM] Uhh, t3d are actually faster to train into lol.

johndrees[2:13 PM]Well, specifically faster than assault frigates.

selto_black [2:13 PM] Well, ain't that a doozy of an issue.

selto_black[2:13 PM]^.^

johndrees [2:13 PM] :simple_smile:

hoodie-mafia [2:13 PM] same thing with Tech 3 cruisers though, but there you have the subsystems

hoodie-mafia[2:14 PM]Its odd to me that the training time is so short

selto_black [2:15 PM] A skill lock of say, awu III would fix that. And provide a necessary skill.

selto_black [2:27 PM] Hrm, where's fozzie.

johndrees [2:29 PM] Yeah, I'm curious to know if CCP is even considering a full rework of the entire ship class or if they are looking more  for input regarding another balance pass. That may help put our discussion on track a bit more. (edited)

johndrees [2:36 PM] Ok, so I have an idea to discuss, what if the resistance bonus was removed from the svipul in defensive mode and replaced with an active tanking bonus (specifically for shields but I suppose it could do both). This matches other minmatar ship bonuses and may actually tone down the svipul a bit especially in instances where logistics are being used. If you combine that change with a class wide bump to signature radius the ships remain good at killing frigates but they would all be relatively vulnerable to bigger and stronger ships.

johndrees[2:38 PM]If that isn't good enough create a rule for t3d that their active tanking bonuses don't apply to AAR or ASB. This would encourage the use of more expensive modules to attain the same defensive numbers and in the case of ASB's it would create a strong trade off for utilizing the bonus or having no cap dependency. (edited)

selto_black [2:40 PM] If only medium deadspace shield reps didn't cost a small fortune.

syenna-celeste [2:41 PM] Pithum c-types aren't awfully expensive.

selto_black [2:43 PM] Still more expensive than an a-type armor rep.

johndrees [2:44 PM] The point is to make the svipul rely on capacitor so that it is more vulnerable to crusier class ships and up that include an energy neut.

johndrees[2:44 PM]If you want the best you can still have it if you pay some cash for it.

syenna-celeste [2:44 PM] The difference is 8mil and for everything that isn't a Hecate, you'll be wanting 2 of the A-type armour reps.

syenna-celeste[2:44 PM]Apples and oranges.

syenna-celeste[2:44 PM]Also crystals.

syenna-celeste[2:45 PM]But Jackdaws do scale ?_gloriously_? with a bit of bling.

syenna-celeste[2:45 PM]Hell, they all do.

johndrees [2:45 PM] Yeah that is true, people bling them now and they are quite good.

selto_black [2:45 PM] Ohh, yes. 200m isk printer.

selto_black[2:46 PM]Once I can afford it I'll swap out my  power relay and t2 heat sink for imp navy sinks.

johndrees [2:48 PM] So, what are your thoughts on a class wide signature radius increase to make them more vulnerable to larger ships?

selto_black [2:49 PM] Rip t3d pve.

johndrees [2:50 PM] Hmm, I guess I don't even think about pve in general. So it's good that you bring that perspective since I doubt most of the people in here are doing pve in t3d either.

selto_black [2:51 PM] That's why I'm here ^.^

selto_black[2:52 PM]Though to be less hyperbolic, the confessor could lose its sig bonus in defensive and not suffer too much.

johndrees [2:53 PM] I still think the signature could increase slightly to make the ships more vulnerable to cruisers which might help. Do you think even a small increase would make pve with t3d non-viable?

selto_black [2:58 PM] Sig is the bread and butter of t3d tanking.

selto_black[2:59 PM]Would it ruin 100% of their pve use, no.

selto_black[3:00 PM]But running c13's and 5/ 10's without perfect skills would be infinitely harder.

johndrees [3:06 PM] Ok, well how about this idea

selto_black [3:07 PM] To fix the neut immunity of the svip is a tricky task. My suggestion is to reduce the fitting costs of artys and the fitting space on the svip. But that would change the balance of minmatar frigs and dessies.

johndrees [3:08 PM] Regarding the mode changes

selto_black [3:08 PM] K.

johndrees [3:10 PM] What if, you could switch modes like you do now but as you do it, you build up a cooldown timer. So you switch once and it's normal, you can switch again in the usual amount of time but if you do, the next one has an increased cooldown, something like 20 seconds instead of 10, if you switch again after 20 seconds but before the cooldown is finished it increases to 30 seconds. It would be kinda like a short duration jump fatigue but specifically for mode changes. This would encourage tactical use of the mode switching without stopping people from having fun with it as a part of their ship.

selto_black [3:12 PM] That would not affect pve.

johndrees [3:13 PM] So, first time, 10 seconds, second time, 20 seconds, third time 30 seconds. Obviously the times are completely flexible but for the sake of discussion...something like that?

selto_black [3:14 PM] And a cap of 45 seconds?

johndrees [3:15 PM] idk

ccp_rise [3:17 PM] joined #tactical-destroyers

johndrees [3:17 PM] hello

ccp_rise [3:17 PM] hi

selto_black [3:18 PM] I think that mechanic is workable, it does however make it advantageous to be the second person to attack the same t3d in a short amount of time.

selto_black[3:18 PM]Because they won't have had a chance to burn through their cool down.

selto_black[3:20 PM]7o rise.

gorski_car [4:18 PM] Hi friend

selto_black [4:20 PM] Hey gorski.

selto_black[4:20 PM]You got through back scroll yet?

gorski_car [4:24 PM] Nope im at work for another 5 hours

selto_black [4:26 PM] Ouch. Though I'm in the same boat. I just have the ability to create time >.>

namamai [4:46 PM] joined #tactical-destroyers

namamai [4:47 PM] Ack, so much backscroll.  Give me a few :stuck_out_tongue:

selto_black [4:50 PM] Has the fellowship of the svipul finnaly all gathered?

namamai [4:56 PM] selto_black: "whats most popular then in your expierence" (re: svipuls)

namamai[4:57 PM]There's one that we see a lot in null (and that I run into often in low) -- passive regen svipuls.

namamai[4:58 PM]Lows full of shield power relays.  Can either do a full rack of 200mms and no option high, or 150mms and a nos.

selto_black [4:58 PM] Yessss I wanna try a passive svip in a c13 for giggles.

selto_black[4:58 PM]See how quick I get poped.

namamai [4:59 PM] The DPS is a little anemic (250ish at point-blank with RFEMP), but the passive regen in defensive mode is absolutely ridiculous -- 350dps+ by itself, and 500dps+ with offgrid shield resist links.

namamai[4:59 PM]Which means that most frigates and T1/T2 destroyers, and even some cruisers, can't break its tank.  At best, they neut it out (or slowboat away from it with the help of a web or two) and bail.

selto_black [4:59 PM] If it's viable it may allow for the clearing of core gas sites in c13's

namamai [5:01 PM] Regarding niden's chart of speeds, yep, the absurd speed of the Svipul and Confessor are a problem (or, at a minimum, that's why they're preferred for small gang / solo over the other two.)  That said, don't forget to take into account their higher mass -- it affects the peak speed they can get from same-sized prop mods.

namamai[5:03 PM]That's why the bump in mass for those two during the initial "5 guns -> 4 guns" balancing pass was so effective.

suitonia [5:19 PM] joined #tactical-destroyers

suitonia [5:20 PM] Greetings, travellers

selto_black [5:22 PM] 7o

suitonia [5:24 PM] On the subject of T3D speeds, I am a big fanboy of the Hecate propulsion mode, Base speed. And mass

suitonia[5:25 PM]I think it's the perfect model, and should be given to both the svipul and confessor

destoya [5:26 PM] Both the hecate and jackdaw feel pretty good in terms of mobility

destoya[5:26 PM]Propulsion mode is something different than just going ludicrously fast

suitonia [5:27 PM] Yes. I have a lot to say about this, at work for 4 hours but I will post it when I get back

suitonia[5:32 PM]Hopefully you guys don't mind a copypaste without graphs

suitonia[5:32 PM]The hecate propulsion mode and why it’s really well balanced. And why it should be used on other T3Ds
I really love the design behind the Hecate propulsion mode, and the base stats that the Hecate has for speed, The Hecate has a really low mass, a Prop Mode bonus that only applies to MicroWarp Drives while having a really slow base speed. What that means is that the Hecate is really vulnerable to bigger ships while it is scrammed, but enjoys near perfect agility (1.99s align) and above the pack Combat Frigate speeds when it is not scrammed.
The Hecate has a base speed of 213m/s (Assuming all level V, no modules which either subtract or add additional speed to the Hecate). This is slower than some Battlecruisers, which means while the Hecate is scrammed, assuming mutual control modules on both side (I.e. A cruiser has a scram+web, Hecate has scram+web) The cruiser will be faster, and will be able to dictate Traversal, and will therefore have perfect tracking vs the Hecate with good deflection piloting (Double click in space, move away, hecate will have to approach at a 0 degree angle). This also means Frigates, which are vulnerable and probably will die in scram range to the Hecate due to the strong tracking on the hull and optimal bonus it can achieve in sharpshooter mode, it means Frigates can control the Hecate, and will be able to scram kite it or leave if they can weather the DPS output, meaning it can’t just permanently keep up with Frigates like the Svipul and Confessor can which both propulsion mode base speeds are faster than every combat frigate in the game.
I really like this balance because it means that the Hecate has the best base agility in the game for a non-shuttle/pod. while having above pack Combat Frigate speeds when it is not committed or hard tackled, but means the Hecate is very vulnerable to Cruisers which have a warp scrambler module. This creates interesting balance/strength and weaknesses to the Hecate. Destroyers should be vulnerable to Cruiser weapons.
The Svipul and Confessor Propulsion modes are incredibly powerful, and problematic in my opinion because it makes them too good at scram kiting, and especially incredibly hard to mitigate damage from even from kiting fits involving beams/artillery even if you outplay them and get on top of them at 0km you will be tracked perfectly.
This also makes them incredibly hard to hold down for Cruisers, while a single web on a Hecate will prevent it from really going anywhere, cruisers need dual webs to hold down both the Confessor and the Svipul in order to keep up with them, and to apply their full damage to them.  
T3D
Base Speed
Base Prop Mode
Combat Frigates
Base Speed
Confessor
294
490
Rifter
456
Svipul
288
479
Breacher
450
Jackdaw
213
283
Punisher
444
Hecate
213
213
Incursus
425
Tormentor
419
Tristan
406
Kestrel
406
Merlin
388
The reason why the base speed is important, as mentioned, is that it is essentially a ‘tracking boost’ for the Svipul and Confessor vs smaller ships attempting to go under their tracking. A 280mm Svipul with a defensive web will be faster than (or force MWD on and sig bloom which results in the same outcome) a close range brawling frigate with scram+web. A close range Rifter starting a fight at 0km, orbit 500 on a kiting 280mm Artillery Svipul, will get tracked absolutely perfectly because the Svipul enters speed mode, mutually webs the Rifter, then double clicks in space with superior speed, drops traversal to 0km and then has perfect tracking vs the Rifter. I feel the power of this mode makes Sharpshooter mode undervalued, since even against Interceptors, the Speed mode actually gives a better tracking increase than sharpshooter mode does, because of the angular velocity you’re able to mitigate by going into speed mode.

suitonia[5:33 PM]I also think that giving the T3Ds the same speed mode will help with taking away unwarranted complexity and weird game mechanic interactions, The hecate is able to warp 1.99s by staying in the speed mode, which makes a lot more sense to newer players, the Jackdaw has a similar interaction, although not quite <2.00 align. Both the Confessor and Svipul can perform this, but only by mode switching mid align from Speed to either Defensive/Sharpshooter, and this weird mechanical interaction is unintuitive to new players.

suitonia[5:37 PM]If giving the confessor hecate-like mass hurts plate fits too much then consider a -50% penalty to plate mass. Role bonus (like the armor layering skill)

selto_black [5:37 PM] If you force t3d's to use an mwd you kill their ability to run wormhole sites.

selto_black[5:42 PM]This issue with mwd fits being non viable for wh pve really pokes me in the side. Meds are a liability for two reasons, sig and cap pressure.

suitonia [5:42 PM] I honestly think applying the 66% bonus to abs too would be fine

suitonia[5:42 PM]The Base speed is the biggest issue

selto_black [5:43 PM] Instead of base speed, give all propmods a +66% modifier?

suitonia [5:43 PM] Yeah. And hecate mass + Base speed

selto_black [5:43 PM] That would unlock some interesting mechanical interactions.

suitonia [5:44 PM] Although I personally feel that the hecate is fine

suitonia[5:45 PM]And purely Pvp speaking, the hecate interaction with scrams is really intuitive and great gameplay

selto_black [5:45 PM] Hecate faces some cap issues when considered for pve. But I agree with it being in a good spot.

selto_black[5:46 PM]In theory, its great for running in, face tanking everything, kill the overseer and gtfo gameplay.

selto_black [5:56 PM] A cap use reduction on reps wouldn't go remiss, but I could see that being slightly op.

namamai [6:23 PM] Boosting all propmods would be viable if it weren't for the ability to used oversized propmods.

namamai[6:24 PM]I'm not sure if it's possible to write a Dogma bonus that only applies to 1MN/5MN, and not to 10MN/5MN.

namamai[6:25 PM]I'm torn on the Hecate -- on one hand, it feels like it's in a good place regarding balance.  On the other hand, I rarely fly it, because I feel it has a lot of vulnerabilities in the current environment (in particular, neut pressure, and limited range compared to the Confessor).  It's hard to endorse a balance point that I consider too weak to fly :confused:

namamai[6:27 PM]The Jackdaw also feels in a good space for now, although I'd love a little more speed on it.  GSF just replaced their Hawk doctrine with a Jackdaw doctrine, and the one thing everyone complains about is the reduced speed.  (And that's with an overdrive in one of its two lows!)

namamai[6:28 PM]In a way, that's one thing I don't like about Jackdaw -- the two low slots produce a lot of extremes in fits.  Most viable fits for it use one of three combinations of lows -- overdrive/suitcase, bcs/suitcase, or 2x BCS.

selto_black [6:28 PM] I think that the daw and Hecate fall as far below the power curve as the confessor is above.

namamai [6:28 PM] I understand that, with six mids, there's a bit of a motive to ensure that it can't be armor tanked.  But it's frustrating.

gorski_car [6:28 PM] Jackdaw is really strong as a brawler imo

selto_black [6:29 PM] It's true. And a really strong bait tackle.

namamai [6:29 PM] It is -- although there's few reasons to use it for that over a Svipul.

selto_black [6:29 PM] Is that the daws fault or the svips?

namamai [6:30 PM] IMHO, that's the fault of the Svipul being strongly above the bar -- but I'm willing to hear arguments to the contrary.

selto_black [6:30 PM] With the massive fitting space required by artys, any autocannons fit us going to have a lot of room to play with.

namamai [6:30 PM] I would argue that there's one thing I don't like about the Jackdaw as-is -- the modes (especially defensive mode) are very strong, while the core stats are rather mediocre.  There's a very hard tradeoff for modes.

selto_black [6:31 PM] As gorski said in his article.

namamai [6:31 PM] I like that, abstractly, but in practice it makes it a weaker hull.

namamai[6:31 PM]Svipul and Confessor, which got the benefit of coming out OP as fuck and then being nerfed to their current state, tend to have solid core stats and relatively weaker modes.

selto_black [6:32 PM] Yes. I'll agree with that.

selto_black[6:32 PM]Should a middle ground be reached for all 4?

selto_black[6:32 PM]Or should the fessor and svip be brought down only?

namamai [6:33 PM] re: fitting space, that's more a condemnation of artillery than it is of the hull.

namamai[6:33 PM]All the artillery, at all tiers, have absurd fitting requirements.

selto_black [6:33 PM] THIS.

selto_black[6:34 PM]dear god the entire set of mechanics surrounding minmatar needs retooled.

namamai [6:35 PM] And on top of that, there's only two artillery options per size/tier, compared to the three railgun options per size.  Hecate can vary between 75mm (which is practically a close-range weapon and honestly easier to fit than neutron blasters), 125mm, and 150mm; artillery gets 250mm and 280mm, both of which are hard to fit.

namamai[6:35 PM]But that's a rant for a different session, tbh :stuck_out_tongue:

selto_black [6:36 PM] But With regards to the svipul and artillery, the more artillery you expect to fit the more absurd your fitting space will be when fitting autos.

selto_black[6:38 PM]That was one good thing about the reduction in hard points provided during their first nerf.

syenna-celeste [6:49 PM] https://ccpfocusgroups.slack.com/archives/tactical-destroyers/p1444329217000830
namamai
All the artillery, at all tiers, have absurd fitting requirements.
Oct 8th at 6:33 PM

syenna-celeste[6:49 PM]A thousand times this.

syenna-celeste[6:50 PM]Make the PG requirements for artillery less insane even if it means tweaking ships, and then the Svipul will be much easier to balance.

syenna-celeste[6:50 PM]If that isn't on the near horizon then it's going to be useless because of gimped fittings, or it will be far too easy to overprop.

namamai [6:53 PM] Eh, you can add disincentives to overpropping by tweaking mass/agi, but not by much

johndrees [7:12 PM] So, now that there are some people here I'd like to ask you opinions again (since things are forever swept away into the mass of text we are generating lol); what do you guys think of a removal of the resistance bonus applied to the svipul in defensive mode and a replacement of a active tanking bonus?

suitonia [7:16 PM] I know that the defensive resistance bonus is incredibly strong, but it would stifle buffer tanked fits quite a bit.

suitonia[7:17 PM]I think logi are a separate issue, and links

selto_black [7:17 PM] It would help make the svipul more viable in pve applications outside of wormholes.

suitonia [7:17 PM] Which are the main problems there

suitonia[7:17 PM]How?

suitonia[7:18 PM]The resistance bonus is already a 50% increase to active tank effectiveness

suitonia[7:18 PM]1 / 0.666666

suitonia[7:19 PM]Is how much of an active tank bonus it is

selto_black [7:19 PM] In ded's where your goal is to smash and grab the superior burst tank of shield fits is better over the buffer of armor.

sardcaid [7:19 PM] I'm curious why T3D gain more than normal resistance bonuses anyway.  They have T2 resist profile, and on top of that the greatest resist bonuses in the game

suitonia [7:20 PM] Unless you are considering giving the svipul a 66% or more active tank bonus then it will be inferior to the current one

hoodie-mafia [7:20 PM] probably inherited from T3 cruisers

suitonia [7:20 PM] And make buffer fits weaker

hoodie-mafia [7:20 PM] but in a "mode" form instead of a subsystem

selto_black [7:20 PM] In that regard you maybe correct. Suitonis.

sardcaid [7:20 PM] A major aspect of the design I dislike is that the mode swaps don't ape or match other ship equivalents, rather they blow them out of the water

suitonia [7:20 PM] If the problem is resists

suitonia[7:20 PM]I would reduce the bade resists on the hull itself

suitonia[7:21 PM]I.E drop them down to combat recon level

suitonia[7:21 PM]*Base

sardcaid [7:22 PM] well you can either reduce the base hull attributes, and have strong modes, or have weaker modes with stronger base attributes

suitonia [7:22 PM] Currently they have both

sardcaid [7:22 PM] yeah

sardcaid[7:22 PM]question is which way to go

sardcaid[7:22 PM]what's more fun

suitonia [7:22 PM] I would rather see strong modea

suitonia[7:22 PM]Modes

suitonia[7:22 PM]And lower Base stats

sardcaid [7:22 PM] I'd say strong modes encourage mode swapping as requirement for an effective ship

suitonia [7:22 PM] Yes

suitonia[7:23 PM]As it should be imo

sardcaid [7:23 PM] though you run into issue of modes being silly, like velocity buff

hoodie-mafia [7:23 PM] the problem with strong modes and weaker base is that it gives another incentive to stay in your current mode

sardcaid [7:23 PM] I like your suggestion regarding MWD boni on prop mode

sardcaid[7:23 PM]solves a lot of issues

suitonia [7:23 PM] Yeah, hecate is really balanced I feel

sardcaid [7:24 PM] does it though, hoodie?

sardcaid[7:24 PM]if you need to maneuver, then you ?*should*? be in prop.  if you need to tank, you ?*should*? be in tank, etc

sardcaid[7:25 PM]where as right now it's mostly tank mode, snipe mode for lock time, prop mode for sig on some ships and positioning

hoodie-mafia [7:25 PM] perhaps, but you already see trends towards a specialization

sardcaid [7:25 PM] I don't think that's a bad thing

hoodie-mafia [7:25 PM] which makes sense

sardcaid [7:25 PM] yeah

hoodie-mafia [7:25 PM] I dont think so either, but I brought it up because Fozzie mentioned that we should stay away from stuff that discourages people from mode switching

sardcaid [7:26 PM] okay

sardcaid[7:26 PM]I think most players are in agreement that mode swaps are fun, so no issues there

johndrees [7:26 PM] Yes

ccp_fozzie [7:26 PM] I don't nessesarily think that strong modes and weaker base discourage mode switching

ccp_fozzie[7:26 PM]my intuition is quite the opposite

sardcaid [7:26 PM] it shouldn't

sardcaid[7:26 PM]should be the opposite

sardcaid[7:26 PM]yup

namamai [7:27 PM] Yep -- if you have strong modes and a weak base, you get a lot of mode switching

sardcaid [7:27 PM] Correct me if I'm wrong, hoodie is pointing out if you design your ship to brawl, then you're probably going to be in tank mode, as any other mode for your fit design doesn't make sense?

syenna-celeste [7:27 PM] That's how I read it.

sardcaid [7:27 PM] I think that's entirely on piloting and the situations players place themselves in however

ccp_fozzie [7:28 PM] That leads me into the first official question I want to pose to the group now that everyone's here (this doesn't mean you have to stop talking about other topics though, lots of discussion is good)

sardcaid [7:28 PM] if you create an adaptable jack of all trades fit, then you're going to benefit more from other modes

johndrees [7:28 PM] Here it comes!

johndrees[7:28 PM]:)

hoodie-mafia [7:28 PM] yes thats what I meant Sard

namamai [7:28 PM] That said, it also hinges a lot on ship type -- i.e. svipul tends to stay in tankmode 90% of the time because there's no purpose for sharpshooter other than locktime.  with hecate/jackdaw, and even confessor a bit, you spend more time in prop mode or sharpshooter mode

ccp_fozzie [7:29 PM] Consider the option of trying to push the mode switching mechanic further into the forefront

ccp_fozzie[7:29 PM]so encouraging more switching in an average fight, and more of a performance difference between a pilot who knows how to mode switch well and one that doesn't

ccp_fozzie[7:30 PM]which would hopefully raise the skill level required to get similar to current performance

ccp_fozzie[7:30 PM]can you guys:

ccp_fozzie[7:30 PM]A) point out opportunities you see to encourage that kind of gameplay

ccp_fozzie[7:31 PM]b) point out issues that are holding it back (for instance common situations where people spend most of the fight in one mode)

ccp_fozzie[7:31 PM]c) think about whether that goal is one you think will lead to better gameplay for both T3D pilots and those fighting against them (basically, should that be a priority of this balance pass)

sardcaid [7:32 PM] is there a way for us to sticky this as a command we can recall or quote or something?

sardcaid[7:32 PM]or place that in a google doc?

ccp_fozzie [7:32 PM] For instance, one idea we've been bouncing around internally would be shifting some of the damage bonuses into the sharpshooter mode to provide more reasons to enter and exit that mode multiple times in a fight

syenna-celeste [7:33 PM]  Pinned a message. See all pinned items in this channel.
CCP Fozzieccp_fozzie
Consider the option of trying to push the mode switching mechanic further into the forefront
Oct 8th at 7:29 PM

ccp_fozzie [7:34 PM] Consider the option of trying to push the mode switching mechanic further into the forefront, so encouraging more switching in an average fight, and more of a performance difference between a pilot who knows how to mode switch well and one that doesn't which would hopefully raise the skill level required to get similar to current performance
can you guys:
a) point out opportunities you see to encourage that kind of gameplay
b) point out issues that are holding it back (for instance common situations where people spend most of the fight in one mode)
c) think about whether that goal is one you think will lead to better gameplay for both T3D pilots and those fighting against them (basically, should that be a priority of this balance pass)

ccp_fozzie [7:34 PM]  Pinned a message. See all pinned items in this channel.
CCP Fozzieccp_fozzie
Consider the option of trying to push the mode switching mechanic further into the forefront, so encouraging more switching in an average fight, and more of a performance difference between a pilot who knows how to mode switch well and one that doesn't which would hopefully raise the skill level required to get similar to current performance
can you guys:
a) point out opportunities you see to encourage that kind of gameplay
b) point out issues that are holding it back (for instance common situations Show more...
Oct 8th at 7:34 PM

ccp_fozzie [7:34 PM] c) think about whether that goal is one you think will lead to better gameplay for both T3D pilots and those fighting against them (basically, should that be a priority of this balance pass)
For instance, one idea we've been bouncing around internally would be shifting some of the damage bonuses into the sharpshooter mode to provide more reasons to enter and exit that mode multiple times in a fight

ccp_fozzie [7:34 PM]  Pinned a message. See all pinned items in this channel.
CCP Fozzieccp_fozzie
c) think about whether that goal is one you think will lead to better gameplay for both T3D pilots and those fighting against them (basically, should that be a priority of this balance pass)
For instance, one idea we've been bouncing around internally would be shifting some of the damage bonuses into the sharpshooter mode to provide more reasons to enter and exit that mode multiple times in a fight
Oct 8th at 7:34 PM

namamai [7:34 PM] I like it, although I'd also be concerned about it giving rise to sniper fleets that stay in sharpshooter 90% of the time and only switch to defensive mode when primaried.

namamai[7:35 PM]i.e. just a tanker version of the nearly ubiquitous sniper corms

johndrees [7:35 PM] One thing that could make the mode switching more important for each fight would be to create negative effects that happen simultaneously with the mode bonuses. So with regard to your internal discussion you just mentioned, perhaps an extreme version would be to make sharp shooter mode the equivalent of strapping on polarized weapons so that your resistances drop to zero but you get a huge dps increase?

ccp_fozzie [7:35 PM] having a better method of pinning discussion topics is something I'll work on :simple_smile:

ccp_fozzie[7:36 PM]@johndrees: you could get a similar effect by lowering base resists and increasing the resist bonus in defensive (and potentially increasing other damage mitigation in propulsion)

namamai [7:36 PM] I mean, as much as I'd love to have a replacement for Harpies, I really don't.  During their heyday, Harpyfleets were a cancer that outperformed pretty much every other AF fleet (and many cruiser-sized fleets).

namamai[7:37 PM]And we all got really bored of flying them :confused:

ccp_fozzie [7:37 PM] @namamai: in the hypothetical case of giving T3Ds the same dps as current while in sharpshooter and lower when outside of it, wouldn't the danger of that kind of sniperfleet dominance be lower or equal to today?

sardcaid [7:38 PM] I think that the ship is more or less there for mode swaps being a valuable and important aspect of the ship, it's more a matter of increasing and decreasing the effect of each mode and the attributes of the ship to balance out the ship.  That players tend to stick to one or two modes is partly due to those modes being stronger, but also a due to current ship meta and fitting ability

sardcaid[7:39 PM]there's not a lot of reason in a beam confessor to be in tank mode, as the design of the ship is to be maneuvering and sniping

selto_black [7:39 PM] Or switching out some bonuses with others that have more defined weaknesses.

sardcaid [7:39 PM] there's not a lot of reason for an AC svipul to be out of tank or prop mods for similar reasons

suitonia [7:39 PM] Also, speed mode gives you more effective tracking than sharpshooter

namamai [7:40 PM] I think it'd be about equal to today's state.  With Harpies, it's a fixed contribution per ship, and you just try to trade as efficiently as possible; with this theoretical setup, only the person being primaried is in defensive, and the rest of the fleet is in sharpshooter, and not much changes.  At best, it afford tactics where you spread fire initially and try to spook a portion of the fleet into going defensive early.

namamai[7:40 PM]Also, while I like the idea, I think it'd require a serious rethink of the Svipul's sharpshooter mode -- even with artillery it's still relatively ineffective outside of 30km or so.

suitonia [7:41 PM] Unless you are triple webbed or serpentis webbed, prop mode Base speed provides more tracking from effective traversal you can remove

sardcaid [7:41 PM] well, you have tactical options of fighting closer to harpies and fighting in defensive, for instance

sardcaid[7:41 PM]as long as base stats allow for that, range and damage wise

namamai [7:42 PM] But I do really like the idea overall of enhanced damage in sharpshooter mode.

sardcaid [7:42 PM] it does seem to make sense namamai

selto_black [7:42 PM] That would currently help in pve applications.

selto_black[7:43 PM]As it stands bloodraider and serpentis force me into Aurora range.

selto_black[7:43 PM]Which means the sites take much longer.

suitonia [7:44 PM] @ccp_fozzie would it be possible to have more powerful modes but have them decay over time so mode switching is more encouraged and 'stance dancing' would be a thing in the eve engine

hoodie-mafia [7:44 PM] I suggested that earlier today, where X% of the bonus would wear off after X seconds

suitonia [7:44 PM] I mean from a eve backend point of view on 1hz ticks

namamai [7:45 PM] As for your C case, fozzie, there's one concern I do have in general about boosting modes.  Small-gang fights, especially in FW, tend to be relatively short -- almost always under 2min, often under 1min.  With the 10sec mode change, the usual mentality there is "start in sharpshooter or speed, apply tackle, then switch to tank."  Then you stay in tank -- not necessarily because tank's the best (although it often is), but because there's not much point to worrying about switching out of tank, because half the fight will have ended before you can get back to another mode.

selto_black [7:45 PM] The svipul does better with serpentis because with its base speed and sig it can mc hammer through most of the damage.

sardcaid [7:45 PM] ohh, like stance fatigue, because holding your sword and shield funny is difficult

sardcaid[7:45 PM]interesting

namamai [7:45 PM] With larger fights, that's less of a concern -- but it's something to think about.

ccp_fozzie [7:45 PM] @suitonia that might get easier with BIAB, but I don't know for sur

sardcaid [7:45 PM] maybe add a fatigue effect to mode swaps Kappa

namamai [7:45 PM] uuuuugh

namamai[7:45 PM]you wound me sard

syenna-celeste [7:46 PM] someone actually suggested that earlier sard :neutral_face:

sardcaid [7:46 PM] really though that's an interesting thought suitonia

johndrees [7:46 PM] Yeah

syenna-celeste [7:46 PM] yeah i'm a fan of the extra bonus idea that suitonia and hoodie have mentioned

ccp_fozzie [7:46 PM] I'll post the CCP "questions to the group" in https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6084986#post6084986
[Focus Group] Tactical Destroyers: All four Tactical Destroyers have been out for a little while now and we're of course planning on making more adjustments to the class over the coming months. To help with this task we intend to put together a focus group on T3Ds that will help provide...

johndrees [7:46 PM] Me :)

ccp_fozzie [7:46 PM] another reason to keep an eye on that thread

sardcaid [7:46 PM] can you keep those questions in the OP fozzie?

ccp_fozzie [7:47 PM] yeah I'm putting them in the 3rd post after the Op atm

namamai [7:47 PM] One downside to the decay idea -- it produces really unpredictable tanking

sardcaid [7:47 PM] okay

ccp_fozzie [7:47 PM] I reserved a bunch of slots in that thread

namamai [7:47 PM] i.e. you can burst tank for a little bit, and then your tank starts dropping relative to the amount of fire coming in

selto_black [7:47 PM] That's what I said namamai.

selto_black[7:48 PM]It then becomes a race of who can get the lucky mode switch.

namamai [7:48 PM] Plus, the modes would have to be longer to make something like that work.  If a mode's bonus tapers off in ~10 seconds, for example, that means that you've gone from full bonus to no bonus in 3 cycles of a SAR / MASB

suitonia [7:48 PM] What if it was 2 different effects then, I.E. Instead of always being 33% defensive mode resists, it could always be 20%, and you get a ln extra 20% for 5 seconds or something

suitonia[7:49 PM]After hitting the mode swap

namamai [7:49 PM] 5 seconds is one cycle of most weapons and frigate-sized tank modules :confused:  You'd have to be PERFECT on your timing to see any benefit

syenna-celeste [7:50 PM] So make it longer. But you can encourage a lot of clutch gameplay this way.

hoodie-mafia [7:50 PM] Well the duration can be tweaked

selto_black [7:50 PM] It also has a bad feel to it.

selto_black[7:50 PM]The base mechanic seems gamey.

hoodie-mafia [7:50 PM] If timed together with logi reps landing or remote reps overheated a brief bonus like that can be quite powerful while toning the overall bonus down

namamai [7:51 PM] In general it seems like decay mechanics don't mix well with 1Hz ticks

selto_black [7:51 PM] Well, more fantasy in nature.

namamai [7:51 PM] Unless it's a very long decay (multiple minutes)

syenna-celeste [7:51 PM] Decay is probably the wrong word. It's still a binary (you have this bonus or do not)

syenna-celeste[7:51 PM]Not reducing per second like was mentioned briefly earlier.

namamai [7:52 PM] On a practical side, too, keep in mind that this decay would have to be managed per ship -- that's a lot of work from a Dogma perspective, and one that BIAB may not be able to help with.

selto_black [7:52 PM] What if you could overheat your modes? / only half serious.

hoodie-mafia [7:53 PM] im sorry, BIAB?

syenna-celeste [7:53 PM] Brain in a box

namamai [7:54 PM] hoodie-mafia: Brain-in-a-Box -- it's an internal refactor of how effects and stats are calculated in Eve.  Currently being tested on Sisi.  Doesn't affect players directly atm, but it makes it a lot easier for CCP to implement certain types of effects.

hoodie-mafia [7:54 PM] Ok thx

syenna-celeste [7:54 PM] https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=421522&find=unread link for the lazy/uninformed :simple_smile:
EVE allows you to discover, explore and dominate an amazing science fiction universe while you fight, trade, form corporations and alliances with other players.

namamai [7:57 PM] Re: Overheating modes.  I find it really interesting, but how would they burn out?

syenna-celeste [7:57 PM] So thinking of applying damage bonuses to sharpshooter mode: I like the idea in theory, but it hits the Jackdaw harder than the other three.

namamai [7:58 PM] I have a running concern of "let's not make T3Ds jacks of all trades" -- especially given their low entry cost in both SP and ISK.  In many ways it's faster to train into T3Ds than T2 cruisers.

hoodie-mafia [7:58 PM] I think stats need to be tweaked on the Svipul and the Confessor at the very least besides any changes made to modes

namamai [7:58 PM] or T2 frigs.

hoodie-mafia [7:58 PM] To bring them in line with the Hecate/Jackdaw

syenna-celeste [7:58 PM] Yeah, the Svipul definitely needs to be made more mode reliant.

syenna-celeste[7:58 PM]The Confessor is in a really weird spot and I'm not sure I'm qualified enough to comment on it. It's strong but not absurd.

hoodie-mafia [7:59 PM] Thats just me assuming that the Confessor is also guilty of being too strong compared to the others besides the Svipul

johndrees [7:59 PM] Well, the confessor is really strong at range but since the first nerf to t3d has been pretty average at brawling in my opinion.

hoodie-mafia [8:00 PM] After the initial nerfs it was a lot better

hoodie-mafia[8:00 PM]Before that it was stupidly overpowered at brawling

namamai [8:00 PM] Take AFs, for example -- a new player needs ~20d of training to sit in a Harpy, iirc.  Caldari Frigate V, and the prereqs for Assault Frigates I (Mechanics V, Power Grid Management V).  But only 12d of training to sit in a Jackdaw: Caldari Frigate III, 9d for Caldari Destroyer I-V.

hoodie-mafia [8:01 PM] yes, because the T3Ds are role trained

hoodie-mafia[8:01 PM]sorry, faction trained

namamai [8:01 PM] The SP entry cost for T3Ds are absurdly low compared to AFs -- no support skills required.

hoodie-mafia [8:01 PM] unlike the AF skill which counts for all 4 races

hoodie-mafia[8:02 PM]I havnt done the math, but to fly all 4 T3Ds at good skills should take more time than to fly all AFs

namamai [8:03 PM] It's basically 11d for the AF prereqs, and then 9d for each racial frigate.

sardcaid [8:03 PM] A good rule of thumb for me is comparing T3s to what they're supposed to be doing, which is approximating the effects of specialist T2 hulls.  That was the initial design for T3C, and T3D, while going beyond that paradigm, style ape other ships with their modes

sardcaid[8:04 PM]With that in mind I like to compare the defense mode to a t2 ship with a normal 4% per level resist bonus, to other ships of the class for base HP and sig, to other ships in the class for damage bonuses and turret counts

sardcaid[8:05 PM]I don't think that T3D in any mode should outdo a T2 or specialist ship at its trade, though it will be more adaptable at that role, while being less effective at the bleeding edge

syenna-celeste [8:05 PM] There's a distinct lack of straight combat specialized T2 destroyers to use a benchmark.

sardcaid [8:05 PM] that's true

syenna-celeste [8:05 PM] You could use 'dictors but they have a very defined role.

sardcaid [8:06 PM] closest thing you have is interdictors, which do approximate T3D in firepower, in a pinch

namamai [8:06 PM] Yeah, that is true.  We don't have general purpose T2 destroyers, other than maybe the sabre.

sardcaid [8:06 PM] interdictors typically lack the projection despite having role based projection bonuses

namamai [8:06 PM] As opposed to the Harpy which is simply a better Merlin

syenna-celeste [8:07 PM] That's not really fair. All of the 'dictors do (or did) see straight combat use. But they're not exactly 'medium assault destroyers'

johndrees [8:07 PM] @ccp_fozzie: What if the bonuses were related to module overheating? So for instance, you would get a damage bonus when in targeting mode but only if you were overheating the guns? The only precedence that exists in the game for an overheating bonus (as far as effect to how well it functions) is on deep space transports, but it's a pretty neat feature that may be fun for people to play with.

sardcaid [8:07 PM] T3D have a heat bonus

sardcaid[8:08 PM]just a flat reduction

johndrees [8:08 PM] Not to effect

johndrees[8:08 PM]I mean a bonus to how hard you hit or tank when in a particular mode but related to overheating

johndrees[8:08 PM]Not how long you can do it.

namamai [8:08 PM] Hmm, that is an interesting idea

sardcaid [8:08 PM] I think that pigdeon holes pilots to a particular mode, though doesn't mean it's a bad thought

johndrees [8:09 PM] Well it means that each mode is REALLY important for a particular task.

selto_black [8:09 PM] What application would that serve for pve?

sardcaid [8:09 PM] not much, as heat is very uncommon for PvE

selto_black [8:09 PM] How would you compensate for the lack bonuses then?

sardcaid [8:10 PM] it would be a flat nerf to PvE if you don't apply module heat

syenna-celeste [8:10 PM] If you combine it with other things it might be an interesting idea. Reduce the base stats, and reduce the base bonus on the modes, but then give say sharpshooter "overheated turrets in sharpshooter mode gain triple the overheating effect"

syenna-celeste[8:10 PM]Start using heat in pve, I guess? They have a heat damage reduction.

johndrees [8:10 PM] Yeah, it would be a nerf to pve for sure.

johndrees[8:10 PM]I like that syenna

sardcaid [8:11 PM] heat is a very common thing for burner missions

selto_black [8:11 PM] I'm of the opinion that eve pve is in need of a full rework anyway.

selto_black[8:12 PM]Yes. Pve needs to be challenging and engaging.

selto_black[8:12 PM]Look at warframe.

johndrees [8:12 PM] I think an added benefit is that it would encourage active tanking (obviously you can't heat passive modules) which is one point where the svipul could be brought into line compared to the other t3d.

sardcaid [8:13 PM] I don't see how bonuses from heated modules brings the svipul into line with other T3D

sardcaid[8:13 PM]it's a very popular ship with active tank modules already

namamai [8:13 PM] selto_black: Warframe may be a bad comparison, given the number of people who turn it into a blind farming game to compensate for DE's terrible RNG.  (?*cough*speednova + excal + greedy mag*cough*?)  Although I'd agree with PvE needing overhauling.  That's probably a topic for a different focus group, though.

selto_black [8:13 PM] True.

johndrees [8:14 PM] Well if you encourage active tanking which utilizes cap (non-asb, obviously that's an issue) then you make the ship vulnerable to neuting which it is not currently.

sardcaid [8:14 PM] Another thing to consider is that punishing players for fitting buffer modules, most typically for fleet work isn't a direction we should be really focusing on

selto_black [8:14 PM] Or dark souls...

sardcaid [8:14 PM] I'm reminded of some hurf blurf about this panel on reddit about making these ships solo pwn mobiles, or at least keeping them that way

selto_black [8:14 PM] mutters about the silent majority

namamai [8:15 PM] Yeah -- I want to see T3Ds as an option for large fleets alongside AFs or T1 cruisers.

sardcaid [8:15 PM] I think it's important to point them out as options, not replacements, as well

johndrees [8:15 PM] Well my point being that one of the biggest reasons that a brawling confessor isn't as dangerous as a brawling svipul is that if you neut the confessor out it actually effect\s the ship.

selto_black [8:16 PM] So lets list all the types of ranking there are and which ships tank which ways.

johndrees [8:16 PM] And I think the t3d being countered well by larger ships is a key to their balancing.

sardcaid [8:16 PM] T3 ships are always going to be very valuable and attractive given their adaptability, but if a fleet decides to use T2 or faction ships for some specialist role, they should be rewarded, not punished for it

sardcaid[8:17 PM]john I think the comparison between shield and armor tanks, coupled with projectile with energy turret ships stems more from the strengths and weaknesses of the weapons, and the relative overpowered effect of being able to fit more than one ASB

selto_black [8:17 PM] Which is in itself a problem with long range weapons.

namamai [8:17 PM] IDK about the ASB argument.  Dual MASB hawks existed for long before T3Ds were implemented.  (Admittedly, they're strong, but people have found counters to them.)

johndrees [8:18 PM] Well the counter is that the hawk is slow lol.

johndrees[8:18 PM]The svipul is really fast.

syenna-celeste [8:18 PM] Which can be fixed by shifting some of its base speed into prop mode.

johndrees [8:18 PM] Agreed

johndrees[8:19 PM]And for added fun, shifting even more of it's speed into a benefit to heating :simple_smile:

syenna-celeste [8:19 PM] A big part of the Svipul is that the base hull is relatively strong on its own. You could solve a lot of the problems with it just by shifting stats from base to modes.

sardcaid [8:19 PM] ehhh I suggest reading into suitonia's analysis on confessor / svipul prop modes

syenna-celeste [8:19 PM] Have you got a link? I skim read it a while ago but I don't remember much of it.

sardcaid [8:20 PM]  Pinned a message. See all pinned items in this channel.
suitonia
Yes. I have a lot to say about this, at work for 4 hours but I will post it when I get back
Oct 8th at 5:27 PM

namamai [8:20 PM] @ccp_fozzie: Does CCP have an idea of where they want damage projection to be for T3Ds with long range weapons?  20km, 50km, 80km?

sardcaid [8:20 PM] he points out the flaws of using base velocity buff in the prop mode bonus

sardcaid[8:21 PM]What do you think their projection should be in sniper mode

selto_black [8:21 PM] I agree the base vel buff needs to be removed.

selto_black[8:21 PM]It scales wayyy too well in black holes.

selto_black[8:22 PM]And with implants/drugs/links.....

selto_black[8:22 PM]It just scales too effectively

syenna-celeste [8:23 PM] I'm kind of torn on the idea of giving everyone the MWD bonus. My head says yes, solves all the problems. My heart says ugh, no variety.

namamai [8:23 PM] sardcaid: I'm not actually sure what feels right here.  Svipul maxes out around 15km for close range ammo and 30km for LR.  Confessor's 30km for close range, 80km+ for LR.  Jackdaw's shooting out to 70-80km.  My gut says 80km is too far for a multitasker hull; I don't want to see a Harpy 2.0.

selto_black [8:24 PM] Now if the bonus was additive instead of multiplicative.(or vise versa if I have these backwards) it wouldn't be near as powerful.

selto_black[8:25 PM]My head says that pve applications will suffer if forced to use a mwd.

selto_black[8:26 PM]My heart says : gottagofast!

sardcaid [8:26 PM] I would think a middle of the road bonus between super LR specialists and single porjection bonused ships is a good place to start

sardcaid[8:27 PM]so if harpies /corms have 2x 10% range boni, consider something like 2x 7.5% range boni

sardcaid[8:27 PM]so on

sardcaid[8:28 PM]T3D should be breaking the mold in that they can chose between bonuses on the fly, not that their bonuses are equal to or greater than specialist hulls

sardcaid[8:29 PM]I think in some cases they should match T2 ships, in tank/gank areas, they shouldn't exceed

namamai [8:29 PM] ^^ agreed.

namamai[8:31 PM]I think that works well with the idea of moving damage into sharpshooter mode, too.

sardcaid [8:32 PM] I haven't thought a lot on it, but it makes sense

sardcaid[8:32 PM]In my eyes defensive more should be more about survival and tackling than brawling

sardcaid[8:33 PM]It'd be interesting to split the damage bonus between base hull and sharpshooter as well

namamai [8:33 PM] ?*nod*?  Defense is the default brawling mode, and that's probably worth changing, especially in the svipul's case. (edited)

syenna-celeste [8:33 PM] Putting all of the damage bonus into sharpshooter would be a mistake. Most of them would be actually alright if you just took the per t3d level bonus into sharpshooter.

sardcaid [8:34 PM] well it's nice to at least give players the option to use sharpshooter to kill something quickly at close range, rather than default to defense

syenna-celeste [8:34 PM] The Jackdaw with Rockets is the exception.

sardcaid [8:35 PM] I agree that all of the damage bonus into sharp shooter makes sharpshooter too potent

namamai [8:35 PM] Yep -- splitting seems appropriate.

selto_black [8:57 PM] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w
YouTube
Extra Credits
Balancing for Skill - The Link from Optimal Power to Strategy - Extra Credits
 


johndrees [9:05 PM] So, Svipul = noob tube = temporary strategy for noob pilots?

selto_black [9:06 PM] yet so vastly op when put in the hands of skilled players

hoodie-mafia [9:06 PM] no thats the Ishtar

selto_black [9:06 PM] *was the nerfedtar

selto_black[9:06 PM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVL4st0blGU
YouTube
Extra Credits
Depth vs Complexity - Why More Features Don't Make a Better Game - Extra Credits
 


namamai [9:09 PM] That's actually correct IMO for the buffer Svipul.  Very easy to fly (esp when compared to most armor brawlers who have to dualrep).  Better players use the same fit, but just execute better.

johndrees [9:14 PM] Indeed, the ship has a small number of things to manage when compared to active tanked or kiting ships.

selto_black [9:14 PM] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlBR1z-ue-I
YouTube
Extra Credits
Differences in Scale vs Differences in Kind - Keeping Players Interested - Extra Credits
 


sfm_hobb3s [9:14 PM] @namamai, at least the hecate and confessor are both VERY useable in large fleets if they are used as a sniping platform.  That's where I've had my success.  You can snipe or drive off tackle, use your probes to your advantage to warp to optimal on ewar frigs and the like.  But you really have to fly it carefully.  Trying to be an f1 button pusher is bound to get you killed.  You have to sort by distance, keep a close eye on whats near you, watch out for the main enemy fleet targeting you (you are about to get blapped).  The key is like sniping in R/L.  Shoot.  Relocate.  And by this I mean warping to a ping a few hundred clicks off the battle, and then warping back to something again.    Now.  Jackdaw sniper (lml).  Useless in big fleets.  The delayed dps kills and buries this hull.  In the time my confessor has fired off two volleys and popped a crucifier at 80km, the first missile volley has not even hit its target.  The target is going to get away.  And the tumours metastisize when you add TIDI.

namamai [9:15 PM] I don't think buffer is the inherent problem, though, so much as it is the amount of regen and the fact that Svipul doesn't need sharpshooter mode to apply solid DPS at 500-1500m.

sfm_hobb3s [9:15 PM] I should add, using these in big fleets has been extremely fun, although tough.

namamai [9:16 PM] sfm_hobb3s: Agreed, jackdaw could probably use a stronger +vel (and a matching -flighttime) penalty.  But at that point we're talking more about the general mechanics of missiles.

sfm_hobb3s [9:17 PM] yep...most missiles not  in a great place :wink:  poor heavies

namamai [9:17 PM] (FWIW, I think missile travel time needs to be rethought now that we're adding missile TDs to the game.  But that's a topic for another group.)

sardcaid [9:17 PM] which is odd to hear, given how often I hear about cereberus fleets being a common thing

syenna-celeste [9:17 PM] RLMLs are the big exception.

namamai [9:19 PM] sardcaid: It's something painful at small fleet size.  It's not that bad for larger setpiece battles where warpouts may mean losing an objective.

sfm_hobb3s [9:19 PM] I'll tell you one of the funniest things that happened in a big fleet flying a confessor...back in BL two or so months ago we caught a goon super fleet with a couple titans in fountain.  Goons were losing the battle, we destroyed the titans and anumber of supers, and one of the last ships of theirs to die before we extracted was a revelation.  For some crazy reason he decided to primary me, and I thought what the heck.  He blaps me I will laugh.   He fired, and the beam just enveloped my whole ship.  Did 0 damage though lol.

namamai [9:19 PM] (Which is one reason among many why Goons use HML tengus as their primary doctrine for sov war.)

sardcaid [9:20 PM] game mechanics vs realism is pretty amusing sfm

sardcaid[9:20 PM]on the flip side I vividly recall tracking titans nearly one shotting an active tanked myrm of mine a few years back

sardcaid[9:21 PM]at 100+km

sardcaid[9:21 PM]anyway, I think all this segways well into chatting about application for these ships

sardcaid[9:22 PM]so currently T3Ds have tremendously potent damage output potential as a class, but little in the way of application bonuses

sardcaid[9:22 PM]I think this is a good thing to maintain

namamai [9:23 PM] Anyways.  Back to fozzie's questions -- I think more frequent mode switches would definitely make for more interesting play, but I suspect that most fits will still end up picking a single mode as their ideal one.  i.e. a sniper Confessor would be "stick in sharpshooter mode by default, go to def or prop as necessary."  There's plenty of room to add skill requirements in knowing when/why to change modes... but I think most fits will still have a mode in mind as the default.

namamai[9:23 PM]Especially for sniper setups.

namamai[9:23 PM]Brawlers will see more of the flexibility.

namamai[9:23 PM](Arguably, I think brawling is where T3Ds need the most work.)

sardcaid [9:23 PM] suitonia was pointing out earlier how T3Ds with velocity bonuses in the propulsion mode don't much need tracking bonuses to apply, and while I agree that velocity bonus should go, or be severely reduced, I like player positioning and direction dictating whether or not a high damage output T3D will hit.

sardcaid[9:24 PM]Once upon a time AS were similar in this regard, in that most did not have tracking bonuses, or had limited midslots and thus lacked webifiers

sardcaid[9:24 PM]it was an interesting and fun tradeoff that rewarded heavily player positioning and piloting

sardcaid[9:25 PM]@namamai: as long as we keep to strong modes and weaker base hull attributes, I think that mode switching even for specialist fits will be a thing

scipioartelius [9:26 PM] Morning all

sardcaid [9:26 PM] it is just a matter of deciding on what balanced bonuses on mode switches are and are not

sardcaid[9:26 PM]good morning @scipioartelius

gorski_car [9:26 PM] finally home from work

sardcaid [9:26 PM] hey gorski

sardcaid[9:27 PM]regarding your article on all this business @gorski_car , do you think ghat T3D should even have a sensor strength boni from sharpshooter?

gorski_car [9:27 PM] Honestly I am not a big fan of it

sardcaid [9:27 PM] sorry, sensor resolution

sardcaid[9:27 PM]not strength

gorski_car [9:27 PM] would prefer a bigger eccm/locking range

gorski_car[9:28 PM]then again a lot of people enjoy the mass insta arty svipul gameplay

gorski_car[9:28 PM]I am not a fan of gate camps in general

sardcaid [9:28 PM] I don't see why the mode should improve your lock time personally, you're already a dessie hull with decent sensor res

namamai [9:29 PM] Yeah, in general I'm not a fan of the sensor res bonus on sharpshooter modes.  (sensor strength / lock range, otoh, is just fine, and maybe could be a bit better on some of them)

sardcaid [9:29 PM] I don't think scan res damps are a common thing vs smaller ships, and you can still achieve silly lock times with RSB or SB on a T3D, requires more sacrifice which in my eyes is fine

sfm_hobb3s [9:30 PM] Having three modes is ideal in my opinion, once you add more there is a greater risk of accidents lol.  I do actually switch modes frequently.  Prop mode when I'm travelling with the fleets or moving around in battle (getting lined up for my next warpout etc), I only switch to sniper mode when I am ready to fire.  And when I get tackled...well, then I switch to armor mode, overheat all the things, and hope I can kill the tackler in time before I am primaried myself :simple_smile:

namamai [9:30 PM] I'm one of the rare people who thinks instalocking camps are okay -- but I think you should have to invest in it (RSBs, etc) rather than just every T3D being a fast tackler.

namamai[9:30 PM](And, conversely, making instawarp something you have to invest in -- at least one agility mod/rig -- rather than just being the default for most T3Ds.)

sardcaid [9:30 PM] how does everyone feel about confessor / svipul having 2x utility highs?

gorski_car [9:31 PM] It's not hardly a investment to bring a rsebo heron nama

gorski_car[9:31 PM]I think it's cool that they have 2 utility highs

namamai [9:31 PM] It's still a second account logged in.

gorski_car [9:32 PM] It's not really easy to get dual neuts on a svipul

gorski_car[9:32 PM]you need to drop 2 rigs for that

namamai [9:32 PM] Confessor, I'm okay with, given that its cap profile encourages nos and discourages neuts.  Svipul, I'm not so sure on -- neut fits are pretty powerful given the ship's engagement envelope, but it means you have to give up some things.

gorski_car [9:33 PM] http://puu.sh/kDjxC/ea1ac385a3.png (85KB)




namamai [9:33 PM] That said, don't forget, nos/neut tiericide is coming.  Some things may change here. (edited)

syenna-celeste [9:33 PM] The svipul and confessor fits I've trended towards haven't actually used the utlity highs.

gorski_car [9:33 PM] That's pretty much the cookie cutter dual neut version

sfm_hobb3s [9:33 PM] you might laugh but I have no room on my confessor for neither neut or nos, so i have a small remote armor rep there.  I get lots of props in small gangs or shield gangs having that lol

gorski_car [9:34 PM] yeah they are not exactly easy to get on

sardcaid [9:35 PM] At worst vs 5 guns it's much better for heat management on the ship, more slots as sinks.  At best it makes the ships (especially the svipul) more versatile that I feel it deserves to be

namamai [9:35 PM] Gorski: I actually run something similar but with armor and 150s instead -- fewer fitting mods, and scram/web makes it a lot easier to stay in neut range.

scipioartelius [9:35 PM] Well the RR confessor works well, so it a good use of the utility slot tbh. We have been running small gangs with dual remote reps and as a group, it works great

sardcaid [9:35 PM] I don't think it's something to really aggressively look at or punish though

gorski_car [9:36 PM] the deadspace sb fit scales insanely with links

selto_black [9:36 PM] can i get that rr fessor fit?

gorski_car [9:36 PM] also the heatsink thingy isn't that big of ad eal sard

gorski_car[9:36 PM]they already have a heat bonus on the ship

gorski_car[9:36 PM]and you rarely burn out in a fight

scipioartelius [9:37 PM] Yeah sure. On my phone at the moment on the way to work, but will send it when I get to the office

selto_black [9:37 PM] ty

namamai [9:37 PM] The reason I ask -- we know that neuts are going to be getting falloff.  Depending on where they pick those ranges, that could mean that cap warfare starts becoming valuable at 8-10km, instead of the current 6km.  In that case, option highs become more important

gorski_car [9:39 PM] http://puu.sh/kDjW3/c89ff6bca1.png (83KB)



made this in 10 sec

gorski_car[9:39 PM]alternate scram and webs in your fleet ofc

scipioartelius [9:43 PM] [Confessor, brawler rr]
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
200mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Initiated Harmonic Warp Scrambler I
Small Focused Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
Small Focused Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
Small Focused Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
Small Focused Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
Coreli A-Type Small Remote Armor Repairer
Coreli A-Type Small Remote Armor Repairer
Small Processor Overclocking Unit I
Small Processor Overclocking Unit I
Small Anti-Thermic Pump I

scipioartelius[9:43 PM]That's what we use, splitting half ships with scram as above and half with long point

syenna-celeste [9:44 PM] Surprised you can get away with the 200 plate.

scipioartelius [9:45 PM] Yep, works fine. We haven't lost a ship flying like this yet

scipioartelius[9:45 PM]Killed plenty

scipioartelius[9:46 PM]Whoever gets primaries switches instantly to defence mode and with everyone else providing reps it holds up well

scipioartelius[9:46 PM]?*primaried*?

johndrees [10:01 PM] I know some members of fountain core who were doing the same with svipuls to great effect.

scipioartelius [10:05 PM] Yes, we have setups for the Svipul and Hecate  as well but tend to fly the Confessor for this mostly. Occasionally we run mixed fleets, but the speed differences require a lot of attention for everyone to stay in rep range

scipioartelius[10:07 PM]Was lots of discussion while I was asleep. Still reading to catch up

fintarue [10:07 PM] Catching up with the conversation.  I believe Syenna mentioned it, but part of the reason the Svipul is so strong is because of the difference in fitting between AC and Arty.  Arty svipuls are fast, but their tank is light and reasonable.  When you have extra PG because AC fitting is so low then you get crazy with the tank, on an already fast and high dps ship.  I think we can all agree that one of the main fits that most people complain about is the double MSE brawler. 20k EHP 3k/s and 400+ dps

suitonia [10:07 PM] Arty Svipul is OP too because of the speed mode

suitonia[10:08 PM]with defensive web you track Scram/Web Interceptors on top of you orbit 500

johndrees [10:08 PM] We certainly are producing a lot of text. Maybe someone should take the core ideas from the discussion and keep them in a Google doc list? That way we don't continue to rediscover the same ideas.

johndrees[10:08 PM]@suitonia what would you think of trading the tracking bonus for an optimal range bonus on the svipul in targeting mode?

suitonia [10:09 PM] it already has optimal on the hull

suitonia[10:09 PM]unless you intend to swap them

syenna-celeste [10:09 PM] Or double it up I guess?

suitonia [10:09 PM] double optimal would be potentially broken though, and not very useful for ACs

syenna-celeste [10:09 PM] Falloff bonus on sharpshooter to encourage AC fits to actually use it?

johndrees [10:10 PM] Yeah, that might be cool.

fintarue [10:11 PM] Responding to Suitonia's post on the Hecate balance, I agree that the ship is probably the ideal balance for how it's speed and other modes work.  Because of the naturally low base speed, tighter fitting, and speed mode, Oversized Props don't benefit the ship nearly as much.  This has another benefit of making the ship less likely to decimate ships a class or two larger.  Even though it's defense mode is incredibly strong, and I love, it takes almost full damage because of it's slow speed and tendency to be MWD fit.  Cruisers do well against the hecate, even though the hecate has a solid chance against them in return

namamai [10:12 PM] This is looping back to the earlier rant about arty fittings, but yeah.

namamai[10:12 PM]And agreed, the Hecate feels good.

suitonia [10:12 PM] Optimal/Falloff bonuses on ACs/Artys could potentially use some work too

suitonia[10:12 PM]as optimal bonuses are trash for ACs

suitonia[10:12 PM]like on Jaguar for example

fintarue [10:12 PM] I'd hate to see the svipul get an extra range bonus.  Part of my concern with some of the t3d is that they project high dps out way past cruisers likely do.

suitonia [10:13 PM] I agree with Fintarue I think there is more reason to use Sharpshooter mode if Speed mode base speed is lowered

suitonia[10:13 PM]as well

fintarue [10:13 PM] Confessor does upwards of 300 dps out at 70k, Hecate can do that at 90k, and Jackdaw hits stupid far out.  Arty svipul has a far more reasonable balance, aside from being fast

suitonia [10:13 PM] because right now speed mode gives more tracking

fintarue [10:13 PM] Agreed

suitonia [10:13 PM] due to reletive traversal and being able to mitigate more angular velocity

fintarue [10:14 PM] All of the other t3d have range while in sharp.  The svipul doesn't, which encourages it to sit in speed mode at all times

suitonia [10:14 PM] an Arty Svipul with defensive web vs Scram+web MWD slasher (the fastest and lowest base sig frig in the game) tracks it perfectly with speed mode, while has issues in sharpshooter mode

suitonia[10:14 PM]that shouldn't be the case

suitonia[10:15 PM]it should be the opposite

fintarue [10:15 PM] I think the hecate is the most well balance of the 4, and could be used as a model for looking at the other 3

johndrees [10:15 PM] What if you remove the svipuls inherent optimal range bonus and replaced it with a bonus similar to the reload bonus on the jackdaw.

suitonia [10:16 PM] I don't think the optimal bonus is really a concern

suitonia[10:16 PM]I honestly believe 90% of the problems with T3D are propulsion mode related

syenna-celeste [10:16 PM] The optimal bonus is necessary for artillery to work at all. Of all the things wrong with the svipul the range is probably the only thing that isn't really out of whack

fintarue [10:17 PM] Agreed Syenna

johndrees [10:17 PM] I'm not saying remove it completely I'm saying apply it to the targeting mode.

fintarue [10:17 PM] That would line up well with the other 3 t3d John, and encourage more mode swapping in the svipul

johndrees [10:17 PM] That way you can't just run around and speed mode with artis blasting off any small ships it likes

johndrees[10:17 PM].

syenna-celeste [10:18 PM] You'd achieve the same thing by copy-pasting the Hecate's MWD bonus onto it and calling it a day.

fintarue [10:18 PM] I also have concerns with the confessor/jackdaw/svipul tanking as well, but it's not necessarily a defense mode issue

syenna-celeste [10:18 PM] Hard tackle should be a hard thing to get rid of, given how well you're able to get rid of it while it's still at range.

fintarue [10:19 PM] It's one thing to have a strong tank, but bigger ships struggle to apply damage to them.  Straight up misses, or in the jackdaw case being able to brute force tank way too high

syenna-celeste [10:19 PM] The Jackdaw's facetank is insanely broken, and only gets more broken the more money you throw at it.

syenna-celeste[10:19 PM]I should not be able to tank 1500dps in a destroyer hull.

suitonia [10:20 PM] The jackdaw gets tracked perfectly by every cruiser weapon system in the game though, and does below average DPS

syenna-celeste [10:20 PM] The Jackdaw needs to deal more damage with rockets.

suitonia [10:20 PM] I think the DPS is fine

johndrees [10:20 PM] Maybe not but at least in that case you could be energy neutralized  and still killed

syenna-celeste [10:20 PM] But its tank is ?_way_? too strong.

fintarue [10:21 PM] But the ability for it to tank 1200+ with no effort is too much.  I think the jackdaw should lose a mid.  This would also mitigate some of the crazy 120km sniper jackdaws

syenna-celeste [10:21 PM] But that might be an artifact of crystals and links more than anything else.

namamai [10:21 PM] The active tank on the Jackdaw is fantastic -- but it's actually not that good in buffer fits.

namamai[10:21 PM]Yeah, that's crystals/links you're dealing with

suitonia [10:22 PM] Links are completely broken and probably beyond the scope of this discussion

fintarue [10:22 PM] Agreed

johndrees [10:22 PM] Yeah I bet most people in here agree that links are broken.

namamai [10:22 PM] Case in point -- GSF has a Jackdaw doctrine right now, buffer fit.  It's 17k ish in defensive mode, 11k-ish in sharpshooter?  That's tiny compared to Svipul, or even 200mm Confessors.

syenna-celeste [10:22 PM] To an extent yes. But I've spent a lot of time comparing similar fits on similar hulls and the Jackdaw is an outlier in terms of how much raw EHP/S it can restore.

suitonia [10:23 PM] Making the Jackdaw 5/3 would help solve DPS issues and curtail it's tank

suitonia[10:23 PM]if you believe it's an issue

fintarue [10:23 PM] Also severe range in sharp

suitonia [10:23 PM] instead of 6/2

syenna-celeste [10:23 PM] I'd support that change.

fintarue [10:23 PM] 5/3 would put it in like with the flycatcher, while giving it an a slot advantage for damage, or the ability to make up for it's abysmal speed

fintarue[10:24 PM]I think that's a solid change

namamai [10:24 PM] suitonia: The flipside would be that Rocketdaws are more dependent on a web for application than the other three platforms.  Most Rocketdaws these days are propmod, scram/web, and a 3 slot tank.
syenna-celeste 
[10:24 PM]  
Added a Plain Text snippet: For reference. 
[Jackdaw, Olga: Final Form]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Damage Control II
Gistii A-Type 5MN Microwarpdrive
Pithum B-Type Medium Shield Booster
Shadow Serpentis Warp Scrambler
Pith A-Type Shield Boost Amplifier
Imperial Navy Small Capacitor Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400
Imperial Navy Small Capacitor Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400
Add Comment
Click to expand inline 23 lines

johndrees [10:24 PM] I'd be in favor of that

syenna-celeste [10:24 PM] This is the shit that I mean.

fintarue [10:24 PM] Those are the same ones that still tank in the realm of stupid

namamai [10:25 PM] If you're going to 5 mids, that brings you down to a 2 slot tank -- you've gotta fit a suitcase (which doesn't quite make up for the loss), in which case you're still anemic DPS.

forsot [10:25 PM] sviples can tank in the range of stupid with some bling  so 3 slots of tank is alot

syenna-celeste [10:25 PM] Rocket DPS with 2 BCUs is fine.

fintarue [10:25 PM] Except that it's common to see jackdaws with 1bcu and DC

fintarue[10:26 PM]which means you'd do 2 BCU and a DC

namamai [10:26 PM] ... You only have two modules on that entire fit that aren't faction, and some of which are extremely high value.  That's easily a 1bil jackdaw.  If you're willing to throw that much ridiculous pimp at a hull, guess what, it's going to be fantastic.

fintarue [10:26 PM] Putting rocket jackdaws up to around 300 dps

namamai [10:26 PM] Most fits aren't that absurd.

syenna-celeste [10:26 PM] ~600mil, Namamai.

suitonia [10:26 PM] I think tank/DPS would be fine with 2x BCU/DC and mwd/scram/web/MSE/MASB or something similar
syenna-celeste 
[10:26 PM]  
Added a Plain Text snippet: Same effect, ~130mil 
[Jackdaw, JACKINOFFDAW]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
5MN Microwarpdrive II
Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
Warp Scrambler II
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Add Comment
Click to expand inline 23 lines

syenna-celeste [10:27 PM] Basically it scales far too well with a trivial amount of money. -1 mid +1 low solves so many problems.

suitonia [10:27 PM] I kind of think it makes sense that it would be a mirror of the Confessor anyway

suitonia[10:27 PM]in terms of mids/lows

suitonia[10:27 PM]since hecate and svipul are mirrors

fintarue [10:27 PM] Agreed, falls in line well with the ship concepts

johndrees [10:27 PM] Yep

namamai [10:29 PM] Still -- that's 600M+ of modules (110M boost amp, 150M shield booster, 100M BCS, 50M MWD, 120M scram) on a 30M hull.  That's more an argument that those modules, or the way the hull bonuses scale them, need to be fixed; not "midslots are OP."

namamai[10:30 PM](Also, I'm actually skeptical that people don't just run away from that shit.  Rocket application without a web is awful.)

syenna-celeste [10:31 PM] 250 for 0, what can I say.

syenna-celeste[10:31 PM]It's far tankier than it has any right to be. But the damage is bad. Solution as above, one more low plx.

fintarue [10:31 PM] The anemic dps means most brawling jackdaws end up having some expensive gear on it so people can live long enough to kill something

fintarue[10:32 PM]Swapping a mid to a low would add damage, while forcing people to choose on the tank or application

selto_black [10:32 PM] why do rockets apply so poorly?

namamai [10:32 PM] I mean, we're talking a feedback loop here.  Jackdaw's DPS is anemic, agreed; so, people go absurd on the tank in order to kill things with it.  But if you raise the gank and nerf the base tank at the same time, you're still in the same spot.

selto_black [10:33 PM] i havent trained missiles...

namamai [10:33 PM] I like the idea of a 6/5/3 daw, but I'd really want to see a little more buffer on it to compensate for the loss of an invuln

fintarue [10:33 PM] How so? The concern we have is that the jackdaw tanks too much, dropping a mid cuts that problem, and helps the issue with poor dps.  It's not circular

namamai [10:34 PM] selto_black: Rockets have an exceptionally low explosion velocity -- imagine torps, scaled down to frigate size.   Most T1 frigates can speedtank them without using a propmod at all, just by slowboating in a straight line.

fintarue [10:34 PM] And forget t2 rockets without having a larger target or double web on a frigate

namamai [10:35 PM] For that reason, it's generally pretty risky to use rockets without pairing them with a web -- or something else to compensate (i.e. Crash boosters, hardwires, etc)

selto_black [10:35 PM] Huh. that seems like a design oversite for a close range weapon.

fintarue [10:35 PM] Might as well spit at em

namamai [10:35 PM] Not really -- in exchange for that mechanic, they don't have the tracking concerns of turrets.

namamai[10:35 PM]I wish rockets applied a bit better, but they're not entirely broken.

selto_black [10:35 PM] but compared to lml's better application?

fintarue [10:35 PM] They're definitely not in the worst spot.

namamai [10:35 PM] Still wouldn't want to brawl without a web, though.

fintarue [10:36 PM] lmls apply very poorly compared to rockets honestly

johndrees [10:36 PM] If they applied well they would out class a lot of small turrets in range and dps output. They aren't all that unbalanced you just have to fit to manage one of their drawbacks.

selto_black [10:36 PM] Huh.

fintarue [10:36 PM] Rockets are definitly in a better spot now than they have previously

johndrees [10:36 PM] Meaning, bring a web.

syenna-celeste [10:36 PM] Or friends. Or both.

johndrees [10:37 PM] Yeah

johndrees[10:37 PM]All good there.

selto_black [10:37 PM] I should stop trying to draw from experiences fighting Orthruses

namamai [10:37 PM] Remember, there's larger fleets using Jackdaws (and other T3s) too.  I happen to agree that Jackdaws have very nice active tanks, and probably need to be nerfed... but don't do it in a way that obsoletes buffer fits too.  I like 5/3, if the base EHP is raised a bit to compensate.

johndrees [10:37 PM] I still like the 6/5/3 layout.

fintarue [10:37 PM] Pretty similar to lasers.  Without a web you may struggle to apply almost any damage

fintarue[10:38 PM]An extra low could potentially help with that buffer, no?  It'd allow for a MAPC cutting down on current routers for more buffer rigs or resist rigs

fintarue[10:38 PM]And wouldn't sacrifice dps or dcu at all

fintarue[10:39 PM]God knows it has cpu for days, and with one less mid it'd be fine there still

forsot [10:39 PM] with the new missle mods it would give you the option for cap/appliction/lessor tank buff/damage

forsot[10:40 PM]vs ewar/tank/application

fintarue [10:40 PM] Definitely cannot forget about those application mods

forsot [10:40 PM] oh also nano

johndrees [10:49 PM] I think it would be very common to see, dcu, bcu, nano as the lowslots for the jackdaw if it had 3 lows.

forsot [10:49 PM] ya

forsot[10:49 PM]im just looking on pyfa what the missle low would do for application in comparison to a web

namamai [10:50 PM] Probably dcu/bcu/overdrive instead.

namamai[10:50 PM]It's already absurdly agile.

forsot [10:51 PM] the big downside is lost  cargo on active tanked ones tho

fintarue [10:51 PM] I fit an overdrive, it still fits 30 cap boosters

fintarue[10:51 PM]and ammo

syenna-celeste [10:51 PM] You can fit an absurd amount of cap boosters.

namamai [10:51 PM] Yeah, Jackdaw has cargo space for days

syenna-celeste [10:51 PM] It's not a problem to lose some.

johndrees [10:51 PM] That's true, overdrive works.

namamai [10:51 PM] You lose very little with an OD
selto_black 
[10:52 PM]  
Added and commented on a Plain Text snippet: C5 Wolf rayet fleet fit 
[Confessor, C5 WR]
Federation Navy 400mm Steel Plates
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Co-Processor II
Heat Sink II
Warp Scrambler II
Warp Scrambler II
1 Comment
Click to expand inline 21 lines
http://puu.sh/kDo8H/f86c344605.png

selto_black [10:53 PM] this is how well the confessor scales within a wr. what seems most broken here is the 23m sig

fintarue [10:53 PM] I don't understand the double scram and 1mn ab

namamai [10:53 PM] What's the value of the dual scram?  (Sorry, I'm not accustomed to WH PvE.)

gorski_car [10:53 PM] draws aggro

selto_black [10:53 PM] yep.

selto_black[10:53 PM]also

fintarue [10:53 PM] Oh WH fit, yes, the sig is one of my concerns with the tanking of the confessor and svipul.

selto_black [10:54 PM] you can switch it for a web no problem

selto_black[10:54 PM]for pvp

fintarue [10:54 PM] It makes big ships apply lmost no damage

selto_black [10:54 PM] gets 35k tank and great resists which make it stupid tanky

forsot [10:54 PM] before un.bound riped we ran  arty svipls in our home WR they do scary things

fintarue [10:55 PM] How concerned are we with how they perform in WH though? Is it limited to Wolf?

fintarue[10:55 PM]The t3d are a good means for new players to get into c1 and c2 and make solid money fairly early

selto_black [10:56 PM] im using this as a poor mans explination of links/drugs/implants

fintarue [10:56 PM] rgr

selto_black [10:56 PM] generally if its broken in a particular wormhole

selto_black[10:57 PM]its broken when you factor those things in

syenna-celeste [10:57 PM] C13 WRs are ?_supposed_? to be a bit broken though, aren't they?

syenna-celeste[10:57 PM]That's kind of the point isn't it?

selto_black [10:58 PM] the problem is that im almost able to run REGULAR C3 sites with the confessor

selto_black[10:58 PM]it takes forever

selto_black[10:58 PM]but its almost do able

forsot [10:58 PM] we ran them in a c5 WR and would win against equal number t3 cruisers with logi if ppl brodcast properly

selto_black [10:58 PM] i just lack a few skills and a bit of elite piloting skills

forsot [10:59 PM] in a fleet meta they are vary squishy even with wr buffs tho

fintarue [11:02 PM] c2 are easily doable for a confessor, and are a great source of some early income for a newbie

fintarue[11:02 PM]Which is what I always recommend to our new guys

selto_black [11:02 PM] Oh yes

selto_black[11:02 PM]good

selto_black[11:03 PM]it gets them exposed to different kinds of space different mechanics and makes them isk

selto_black[11:03 PM]http://puu.sh/kDoEj/e73ed9bcca.png (75KB)




selto_black[11:03 PM]that is with x-instinct and sleipnir links

selto_black[11:03 PM]14m sig

fintarue [11:03 PM] Well considering we live in low, it's also rough to ask a new player to live in low without having an income source, c1/c2 are one of the best means

selto_black [11:04 PM] i totally agree

fintarue [11:04 PM] That goes back to, is the ship itself broke or is the links broke?

selto_black [11:04 PM] and then you run into a c13 and make bank

fintarue [11:04 PM] The sig is pretty low on it's own, but links make about anything stupid

forsot [11:04 PM] you cant have links in a c13....

selto_black [11:04 PM] eh thats me being a bit hyperbolic >.>

fintarue [11:05 PM] That sig is pretty close to doable even not in a c13

selto_black [11:05 PM] and considering that the lowest weapon sig is on rockets and that its lower than that?

fintarue [11:06 PM] once you get to that point, even webbed to hell it'll take no real damage

fintarue[11:06 PM]or atleast easily tankable when active

namamai [11:07 PM] Yeah, I'd like to see a little more sig radius -- although more bluntly I'd just love to see EM links removed from game

fintarue [11:07 PM] But we're seeing similar stuff with them now against cruiser before getting silly.  The sig is too small for cruisers to apply much at all

forsot [11:09 PM] links in the current state are bad but forced on grid they have interesting game play in a fleet setting

fintarue [11:09 PM] Let's try and avoid that conversation

forsot [11:21 PM] also the missile guidance low on the jackdaw is mostly useless compared to a web it only adds about 11% vs near 100% increase using rage rockets with a web

fintarue [11:21 PM] Don't use rage

fintarue[11:22 PM]There's no helping rage without a double web

fintarue[11:22 PM]even with nothing but application mods

ccp_fozzie [11:24 PM] Hey folks, just want to let you all know that I'm going to be out of the office at a game design department offsite all day tomorrow so you can expect me to be silent until the weekend

syenna-celeste [11:24 PM] Have fun.

selto_black [11:25 PM] When will the first set of logs be released?

ccp_fozzie [11:25 PM] I'll probably try and get them posted over the weekend

selto_black [11:25 PM] Cool

ccp_fozzie [11:25 PM] we're planning on setting up an automatic deployment to an ftp server but we haven't done all the setup there yet

ccp_fozzie[11:26 PM]so the first few batches will be posted manually

ccp_fozzie[11:26 PM]I'm running an IRC client connected to this team which is logging everything

fintarue [11:26 PM] Looking forward to this.  I'm terrified, and interested as to what the rest of peoples think about our discussion

ccp_fozzie [11:27 PM] I have a feeling that 99% of the people who would bother reading through all this are already in the focus group :simple_smile:

ccp_fozzie[11:27 PM]but we'll see

fintarue [11:27 PM] lolol

ccp_fozzie [11:27 PM] either way the transparency will have a lot of inherent value I think

forsot [11:27 PM] http://puu.sh/kDpQH/54fa04d6fd.png (37KB)



<- no damage mods just base application on an ab incursus

forsot[11:27 PM]thats cn ammo

selto_black [11:28 PM] im looking forward to all the cries of "omg that carebear doesn't belong in a pvp focus group"

fintarue [11:28 PM] Carebears belong too, just shows how prevelant these things are

namamai [11:28 PM] Yup, no objection to PvE players here

ccp_fozzie [11:29 PM] I think the complaint du jour is that too many of you have interacted with the AT at some point

fintarue [11:29 PM] Ah-ha! I missed that thing

syenna-celeste [11:30 PM] Yeah, we'll go through a few weeks of this and it'll turn out we were all Kadesh Priestess all along.

fintarue [11:30 PM] I think one of the problems with people wanting pilots of bigger fleet sizes is that often in those sizes it doesn't matter what's being flown since they melt no matter what

forsot [11:33 PM] i can attest to that we used to skirmish with lazh in a WR granted we did 3x the damage but we also had twice the buffer but with 20ish dudes desis would be getting volleyed

forsot[11:33 PM]and even then alot of ships wouldn’t even be on mails

fintarue [11:35 PM] It's the same as the orthrus, often seen as broke or cancerous, but in extremely large fights it's bonuses are effectively a non factor since it can get volleyed so easily off the field.  People would rather take the t2/t3 pointing variations for that ewar as it'll survive better.  But in smaller engagements that's when the orthrus becomes insanity


-----
October 9th
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namamai [12:55 AM] One thing I should mention about the Jackdaw 5/3 proposal -- it will kill quite a few fits

namamai[12:55 AM]LML Jackdaws are pretty much the only T3Ds that can potentially take an option ewar mod.

namamai[12:56 AM](For ex: long point, web, TD, tank)

namamai[12:57 AM]If we go to 5/3, then we're basically turning it into a fat Hawk.

namamai[12:57 AM]At least 6/2 makes it its own ship.

namamai[12:58 AM]That's also the main reason that Jackdaws see use in fleets -- they can spread out a mix of ewar.

namamai[12:59 AM]It strikes me that if we're trying to make T3Ds have a better place amongst cruisers/AFs/etc, we probably shouldn't start by making them better, slightly more expensive, easier to train for versions of AFs.

selto_black [1:02 AM] i concur

namamai [1:16 AM] There are better ways to reduce the power of active tanks on it (and boost its damage) than reducing fitting flexibility

sardcaid [1:22 AM] It all depends on the fitting and attributes after a module swap around

sardcaid[1:22 AM]both are fine as long as the attributes are in harmony with the module layout

sardcaid[1:23 AM]I agree that 6/2 is really interesting

gorski_car [1:34 AM] our fleet Jackdaws each have dual damps and it is really effective

namamai [1:36 AM] ^^ One damp each here, but yep.

namamai[1:36 AM](Specifically: MWD, scram, web, damp, invuln, MSE)

namamai[1:36 AM]With a few people in TPs.

gorski_car [1:37 AM] we have mwd, point, web, damp x2, mse

johndrees [2:25 AM] https://youtu.be/zIWPAnN7oDk
YouTube
John Drees
RvB Ganked Fleet #179
 


johndrees[2:25 AM]That's something I've done before as well.

johndrees[2:29 AM]I had the fleet use ab for sig tanking

forsot [2:32 AM] that’s basically how we ran our armor svipls/confs in the WR

forsot[2:32 AM]only plated

forsot[2:33 AM][Svipul, WR Svipul]
400mm Steel Plates II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Gyrostabilizer II
Imperial Navy Adaptive Nano Plating
1MN Afterburner II
Faint Warp Disruptor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I,Targeting Range Dampening Script
280mm Howitzer Artillery II,Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium S
280mm Howitzer Artillery II,Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium S
280mm Howitzer Artillery II,Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium S
280mm Howitzer Artillery II,Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium S
Small Ancillary Current Router II
Small Ancillary Current Router II
Small Trimark Armor Pump II

selto_black [2:51 AM] http://puu.sh/kDsc0/8f1d8acda7.jpg (9KB)



i give you the state of eve in one picture

scipioartelius [2:54 AM] ^^ lol. 3 hours left in my work week and then I'll be right into the discussion

sardcaid [2:55 AM] looking forward to it

selto_black [4:08 AM] Bloody mobile PINGS...

selto_black[4:09 AM]There. Twas such a nice dream too.

suitonia [4:12 AM] You can never escape from eve

suitonia [4:20 AM] @namamai: EM Link is more powerful than HG Halos + Strong X-Instinct

suitonia[4:20 AM]I agree that it is by far the most broken link in the game

suitonia[4:21 AM]even though a lot of people don't notice how powerful it is

suitonia [4:28 AM] @fintarue: Single web is enough for perfect Rage application to the majority of Frigates in the game

suitonia[4:29 AM]Only dual-prop/AB and some ships like Claw have damage mitigation

suitonia[4:29 AM]Take it from Kestrel warlord)

suitonia[4:30 AM]Maybe your expectations though are from lowsec where most ships are AB fit

sardcaid [5:09 AM] it's exactly what we're used to

sardcaid[5:09 AM]most dogfights fin and I have are AB fits

ascentior [5:17 AM] so much reading

ascentior[5:18 AM]finally caught up

ascentior [5:25 AM] #mode-switching I think that the strength and the fun of T3Ds should come from the modes. The fact that the brawl confessor I had linked has 17k ehp when NOT in tank mode seems a little much for that hull size. Of course, these things are then all screwed up when you add links/implants

ascentior [5:30 AM] 23k ehp when in tank mode is high, but not unreasonable nor unassailable.

fintarue [5:33 AM] Ya, suitonia, low sec abs are very highly used

ascentior [5:42 AM] Regarding the layout of the jackdaw, that discussion seems to be a great example of niche fits that push things to absurd levels. While also hi-lighting the issue of OGB, etc.

ascentior[5:45 AM]Having a local active tank like that is ridiculous, the suggested solution seems reasonable, and I think adding base shield HP would help avoid doing the 'prevent edge case, nerfs all other cases more, edge case becomes more prevalent' dance

fintarue [6:17 AM] Also, when flying with a group it seems perfectly reasonable to me that not everyone has 2 damps or ewar fit.  It's similar to when there were gangs of flycatchers floating around before the t3d were introduced

ascentior [6:40 AM] The cap penalty idea for mode switching, as already pointed out, favours less cap dependant ships. In this case, the Svipul will pretty much not see an issue. Confessor already needs to manage cap well, this would mean Confessor needs to be in the right mode at the start of the fight, or it will run dry

ascentior[6:41 AM]Short term bonuses for being in the right mode, or any other form of arbitrarily forcing people to switch mode is counter-productive. If you are in the right mode, and your opponent has left you in a position where that continues to be the right mode, then you should not be penalised.

ascentior [6:47 AM] Pilots should not be penalised for being in control of the situation. However, moving some bonuses to make sure no one mode can 'do all the things' is important.

ascentior [7:47 AM] Any bonuses to active tank are ultra-specific, and only detract from usability in fleets and add to small/solo. Which seems to go against a few key points we all agree on

johndrees [9:51 AM] Good morning o7

scipioartelius [9:56 AM] hey john

hoodie-mafia [9:56 AM] Good morning

scipioartelius [9:56 AM] hey hoodie

suitonia [3:09 PM] I second that cap penalty on mode switching would be terrible

suitonia[3:09 PM]I think a spool up mechanic where you don't immediately get the bonuses would be good

suitonia[3:11 PM]I.E instead of instant switch and 10s CD on mode switch, a 3s spool up, then 7s CD afterwards

suitonia[3:11 PM]Would require a bit more though and pre planning

suitonia[3:13 PM]I also strongly believe that sharpshooter modes on the svipul and confessor would be much more valuable if their respective propulsion modes were not as broken

chessur [3:17 PM] Certainly cap can be an elegant solution to the mode switch problem. It also helps to nerf the cap weak svipul.  Secondly, it allows for further fitting choices. Do you fit a cap booster to allow for maximum versatility - or try and min max a certain fitting with out one?(edited)

selto_black [3:17 PM] How would you guys abuse a 50% velocity bonus to afterburners on the confessor while tweaking its mass and agility so that oversized ab's get the shaft? This imo would be the ideal pve equivalent to the confessor while still getting rid of the broken base speed. (edited)

chessur [3:18 PM] I would also like to agree on some of the mode switching bonus. I think sard was tossing the idea around, about defence mode being made for survivability - not the go to brawling mode (edited)

chessur[3:18 PM]I really liked that change, provided changes in the other two modes were also made to compensate

selto_black [3:19 PM] Yes the svip is mildly cap weak. But how do you balance that with cap independent svipul fits?

chessur [3:31 PM] Svipul no longer gets to use dual neuts wirh out xap booster

chessur[3:31 PM]And, against other t3d / cruisers that have neuts- it will be dead in the water quite quickly

chessur[3:33 PM]Svip in shield setup, would also lose a midslot if you want to have a cap booster- which can weaken the op shield fits

selto_black [3:47 PM] I also don't like cap based switching as it penalizes newbros much more than high skill point players based solely on the fact that they simply won't have as much cap, or as fast a cap regen.

chessur [3:48 PM] Does everything have to be designed around new players?  Cap booster can fix it

chessur[3:49 PM]Many ships can have cap issues if you fly them improperly / fit them improperly or have bad skills. Thats eve to me :)

selto_black [3:53 PM] If you believe that t3ds should not be flown by new players why are you not petitioning to have their base skill requirements upped?

chessur [3:54 PM] Where did i say that? New players can fly them- perhaps not optimally. Perhaps they have to fit a cap booster, but they can certainly fly them.

selto_black [3:54 PM] But yes. If a ship takes less than a month to train weapons and the hull it should be balanced for the newer player. 15m sp or so imo.

chessur [3:54 PM] Yah and you can get 80+% usefulness out of it

chessur[3:54 PM]Or just fit a cap booster

chessur[3:55 PM]Numbers would have to be tweaked ofc

selto_black [3:56 PM] For pvp I agree with you.

selto_black[3:56 PM]Pve on the other hand should not require a cap booster just to use the signature mechanic of the ship.

selto_black[3:58 PM]I think a much better option would be to lessen(formerly remove) the "push button Gib stats." Nature of the current iteration of the mechanic. (edited)

selto_black[3:58 PM]Give it a delay.

selto_black[3:58 PM]That was poorly phrased.

selto_black[3:59 PM]There.

chessur [4:14 PM] Why is a cap booster bad for pve?

chessur[4:15 PM]You dont need a point / web so ypu shouldnhave plenty of mids open

forsot [4:15 PM] they are generally poor do to requiring refills so lost time and possibly wh mass(less of an issue in this case)

forsot[4:16 PM]also added cost

chessur [4:16 PM] But what about returning missions / dropping loot / getting ammo? Certainly additional cap boosters thrown in there would not break them

chessur[4:17 PM]And a cap booster would should only be needed if you are aggressively switching modes / under cap pressure

chessur[4:17 PM]I dont consider needing to cap boost after a mode seitch something i want

chessur[4:18 PM]It would be noticable cap loss, but not that severe

forsot [4:18 PM] some cases yes but one case selto made about doing hs or low sec explo you might be a significant distance from where you keep charges especially if you doing an expo

chessur [4:18 PM] Buy them from market? Make a fit that has other ways of getting cap? Dont mode switch so much?

chessur[4:19 PM]Many ways to remedy this problem

chessur[4:19 PM]And if you are doing exploration, then you encounter basically zero rats

chessur[4:19 PM]So your cap is going to be quite healthy at all times

forsot [4:19 PM] deds

chessur [4:20 PM] Return to point one

johnnytwelvebore [4:24 PM] There are also mid and low slot passive cap mods if you are pve-ing and dont need tackle mods..

forsot [4:24 PM] personally mode switch requiring cap would force a lot of situations into staying in one mode. when i made our WR doctrines i designed them to not require cap to survive do to the nuet heavy environment that w-space is. the same could be said for other areas and i believe it was stated we wanted to avoid making people not want to switch mods

chessur [4:26 PM] I think its a poor argument that cap will stop people from switching modes. Real, relevant choices come with mode switch now. Forethought, and risk vs reward.

chessur[4:27 PM]If you are so cap scared, fit energy transfer, fit cap booster, mindflood, and other passive cap mods are all open to you in fitting

chessur[4:28 PM]Making the argument for cap, helps larger ships combat t3d along with groups of smaller ships possibly overwhelming them with cap pressure and kite vs brawl scinerio. It also will reduce the effectiveness of the svipul shield fits

destoya [4:30 PM] I'd be worried that a cap-based system would favor the jackdaw and svipul too much

destoya[4:30 PM]and it would essentially make a cap booster necesarry

destoya[4:31 PM]it's trivial for a 400-charge small cap booster to boost back over whatever threshold, especially with capless guns and smaller cap sizes

chessur [4:32 PM] Again, in no way would i propose that mode switch nukes your cap so badly that a cap booster is needed. I am proposing that if you want the ability to mode switch every 10 seconds, you are going to feel that.
Svipul has weakest cap, and likes to shield fit. How is this buffing them? (edited)

destoya [4:34 PM] 2 utility highs for noses, capless guns? Sure it may be worse in artillery fit but cap really isnt a problem for a AC fit

selto_black [4:34 PM] The dual msab fit is capless, passive regen fit is capless, buffer fits are capless. In

selto_black[4:35 PM]Most use cases for these fits once you are in neut range the passive regen between neutcycles keeps your point on.

destoya [4:35 PM] I'd honestly rather encourage changing modes than discourage it to. The mode switching is what makes t3d unique, and in my opinion it's not what makes them overpowered right now

selto_black [4:53 PM] Hrm, incoming ewar effectiveness reduction in sharpshooter...

selto_black[4:54 PM]Instead of the insane bonuses to base stats.

namamai [5:28 PM] -1 for modes requiring cap to change.  The spin-up on changing modes sounds interesting (and we could in theory take it all the way and say "it takes 10 secs to change modes, but at the end of it, you can immediately start another 10sec mode change") but in practice I don't think I'd like playing it.  It seems like it'd remove a lot of the quick-twitch play that makes T3Ds interesting compared to T2.

gorski_car [5:29 PM] the quick twitch play is sadly sharpshooter, lock target and then defensive mode  at the moment

gorski_car[5:29 PM]or speed then defensive

syenna-celeste [6:12 PM] Which just proves the point that defensive mode is too strong for brawling.

syenna-celeste[6:12 PM]The earlier suggestion of having sharpshooter convey some kind of damage bonus would alleviate some of that.

chessur [6:15 PM] Something simmilar to that thought was suggested before

chessur[6:16 PM]I would be a proponent of changing what the 3 modes did, instead of shoe horning most t3d fighting into speed + defense

syenna-celeste [6:20 PM] How do you feel about the Hecate's mode bonuses, Chessur?

chessur [6:30 PM] i personally enjoy its propulsion mode the best. Unlike the sviple for example its flat mwd bonus really makes this ship deceptively vulnerable inside sxam / web range (edited)

chessur[6:30 PM]Like suitonia has highlighted earlier.

johndrees [6:30 PM] We should really create a Google doc to keep track of ideas so we stop rediscussing the same things over and over.

chessur [6:31 PM] However, there are some things i dont like about it

chessur[6:33 PM]I think that for the most part, sniper modes across the board are pretty bland and could use work. Hecate is no exception.

chessur[6:34 PM]Lastly, it has a really strange structure bonus while in defense mode. I am not a hufe fan of this, as i feel going all in on armor tank would be better

chessur[6:35 PM]Buffer armor or buffer structure fits are kind if 'meh' to me

syenna-celeste [6:36 PM] I see that as a safety net for finishing off that one last guy before your active tank holds.

syenna-celeste[6:36 PM]Buffer hecates are meh in general.

syenna-celeste[6:37 PM]Wouldn't hurt to lose it but you couldn't really give it anything else without unbalancing it. The ship's in a pretty good place so I'm inclined to say leave it.

chessur [6:37 PM] I could just see a more unified armor bonus (or perhaps another bonus of some kind) hacing better synergy.  Dont get me wrong, i understand thatbhaving a nice structure buffer to help a cracking active armor fit is nice- but there are other options to explore

chessur[6:38 PM]Sry for punctuation, on phone trying to type quickly

selto_black [6:42 PM] As I stated a rep cap usage decrease would synergize wonderfully with pve. Though I'm sure it would break the hecates pvp balance.

syenna-celeste [6:43 PM] It would, yes. It's balanced almost entirely on its ability to cap itself out in record time.

chessur [6:44 PM] Perhaps,  and this is very crazy

chessur[6:44 PM]But replacing it with an adaptive armor hardener passive bonus?

chessur[6:45 PM]Clearly it would not nearly be as strong as the mod. But allow it to adapt faster?

syenna-celeste [6:45 PM] Cycletime on RAH's would fit with the theme of the ship.

selto_black [6:45 PM] ... Hmm.

syenna-celeste [6:46 PM] Single mod specific though. Could maybe give something like a flat resist bonus to active hardeners? Kind of boring by comparison but it makes it a bit more flexible.

syenna-celeste[6:47 PM]Or less boring: Defensive mode gives active hardeners a small omni resistance bonus?

syenna-celeste[6:48 PM]So an explosive hardener would go from +55% exp to +55% exp + 10% em/therm/kin

syenna-celeste[6:48 PM]Thing is we're still giving defensive mode more value and as has been discussed before it's already the go to brawling mode.

syenna-celeste[6:49 PM]And we really don't want that.

namamai [6:50 PM] Also, elephant in the room: RAH is buggy as fuck-all.  Ever seen what it does when faced with 3 damage types?

syenna-celeste [6:52 PM] Full disclosure: I've never actually used an RAH. It was kind of dead on arrival imo.

suitonia [6:53 PM] RAH has a few weird interactions yeah

suitonia[6:54 PM]Chessur bare in mind all T3Ds have the same average capacitor per second iirc

suitonia[6:54 PM]So while the svipul has the lowest Base cap

suitonia[6:54 PM]It has the best regeneration

suitonia[6:55 PM]So Svipul and Jackdaw would benefit

namamai [6:55 PM] syenna-celeste: They work predictably if you're facing one or two damage types.  Once you start seeing more, their behavior gets unpredictable.  (And it's pretty easy to get in that situation -- say, fighting a single opponent who's using hybrids and Valkyries.)  They're horribly buggy.

suitonia [6:56 PM] Nam it counts each damage tick as a different switch

suitonia[6:56 PM]So in the case of hybrids and valks

suitonia[6:57 PM]You get hit 5 separate times by pure explosive, then 1-2 times by kinetic thermal split

suitonia[6:57 PM]So it will phase more to explosive

suitonia[6:58 PM]Even though you are probably taking 3x that explosive Dps in kin and thermal

suitonia[6:59 PM]It doesn't trigger from dps, only each damage tick

suitonia[6:59 PM]You can fuck someone's Rah a lot with rockets for example

suitonia[6:59 PM]You have a drake and a kestrel

suitonia[7:00 PM]Drake groups launchers and does pure kinetic

suitonia[7:00 PM]Kestrel ungrounded launchers and loads split of thermal / em / explosive

suitonia[7:01 PM]And your Rah will end up with lowest resist to kinetic

suitonia[7:01 PM]Even though it's by far the highest incoming damage

suitonia[7:04 PM]Manipulating RAHs like this happens in AT a lot

namamai [7:05 PM] I wish I knew more about nos/neuts tiericide -- it'd guide whether or not I should feel worried about svipul keeping the ability for dual neut fits

suitonia [7:05 PM] Also, another fun thing we learned from AT

gorski_car [7:05 PM] RAH is sick good vs ppl who dont manipulate it

namamai [7:05 PM] My gut instinct is that svipul needs to lose a high, but I don't feel like I have stuff to back that up yet.

suitonia [7:05 PM] Damp modules and damp drones are on seperate stacking penalties

syenna-celeste [7:06 PM] I sort of want to agree with you nam, but I'm sure there's a more graceful solution.

syenna-celeste[7:06 PM]Double utility highs are nice flavour.

syenna-celeste[7:06 PM]And a minmatar trademark.

suitonia [7:06 PM] I like dual highs for entosis too

suitonia[7:07 PM]And for probe launcher and nos for wormhole pvp/pve

suitonia[7:07 PM]I think dual neuts comes back to artillery and ac fitting disparity

suitonia[7:08 PM]Confessor has to sacrifice a lot for dual nos/neut

suitonia[7:08 PM]AC svipul does not

suitonia[7:09 PM]But I think it's a projectile balance issue

destoya [7:10 PM] Really laser balance too, you try to cram in beams wherever possible because of the better DPS and range. Way more fitting use than 200mm ACs

destoya[7:10 PM]I know our confessor fit was incredibly tight

suitonia [7:11 PM] Lasers are fine though

destoya [7:11 PM] Yeah i agree

suitonia [7:12 PM] 280mm IIs take 3x the fittings of 200mm

suitonia[7:12 PM]Which is the problem

destoya [7:14 PM] I've always liked the tiny fitting use of 125mm's as a unique feature of autocannons, could probably stretch out the differences between 125/150/200 though

selto_black [7:16 PM] So is it better to increase the fittings of ac's or decrease the fittings of artys and the room on the svip?

syenna-celeste [7:17 PM] The entire weapon system needs a do-over really. Not unlike the hybrid reshuffle a few years ago.

chessur [7:17 PM] Agreed on acs, need huge help.

selto_black [7:18 PM] please please please please

syenna-celeste [7:18 PM] This problem manifests itself in every ship class, although admittedly it's very pronounced w/ the Svipul

syenna-celeste[7:18 PM]Sadly it's beyond the scope of this group really.

chessur [7:18 PM] I am interested in hearing what ccp would like to hear discussion about in regards to t3d

chessur[7:19 PM]I feel like we are sailing on uncharted seas currently

syenna-celeste [7:19 PM] Fozzie gave us a vague pointer yesterday but yeah. We're going to grind to a complete halt, or continue in circles, unless we get some hardcore discussion points.

chessur [7:20 PM] We could make our own lol. But I hardly think thats worth it

selto_black [7:21 PM] I honestly think the svipul is a culmination of artifacts and inherent flaws in other design decisions that formed the perfect storm for an op pwnmachine. (edited)

selto_black[7:22 PM]O.o big words.

syenna-celeste [7:22 PM] Uhh.. To an extent, yes. But not entirely.

syenna-celeste[7:22 PM]The base hull ?_is_? very strong.

selto_black [7:23 PM] One of the only in vogue Minnie ships to my knowledge.

selto_black[7:24 PM]I'd like it to stay at least semi relevant (very biased twords minmatar)

johndrees [8:08 PM] Hey guys, as a few of us have pointed out, we are repeating conversations. In order to keep things moving forward I have started a google doc to start collecting up ideas.

johndrees[8:09 PM]What we have been doing so far is essentially brainstorming which is good

johndrees[8:09 PM]So, this is all I have on the doc so far

johndrees[8:09 PM]EvE Online T3D Focus Group, brainstorming session ideas so far:
Categories:
Changing Modes:
Changing modes costs capacitor
Changing modes builds a timer/fatigue (related to switching) the more it is used
Changing modes applies bonuses over time after change.
Bonuses applied by mode switches diminish over time.
Decreasing overall DPS output when not in targeting mode.
Ship stats/bonus/layout:
Remove a mid-slot from the Jackdaw and add a low-slot.
Remove a high-slot from the Svipul.
Changing svipul resistance bonus to an active tanking bonus.
Other:
Rebalancing projectile weapons.
Rebalancing Assault Frigates.

johndrees[8:09 PM]So, that didn't quite format perfectly via copy paste lol but I think you guys can read it.

johndrees[8:10 PM]Please let me know what ideas I haven't captured on the list

johndrees[8:10 PM]We can keep coming up with new ideas until we have what we think is enough and then we can spend some time determining the validity of each idea later.

johndrees[8:11 PM]Hopefully this helps us move things along. I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds by just going for it.

johndrees[8:12 PM]I'll link the doc soon, google is apparently having a problem lol.

johndrees[8:14 PM]https://gyazo.com/4b4b7d9f69a10fe0ee9339b5fa244e43
Gyazo (39KB)




johndrees[8:14 PM]Still, not the doc, but google keeps giving me some internal error nonsense so that's what I've got so far.

chessur [8:35 PM] I really like this

chessur[8:36 PM]I want to sperg out and lay out thoughts for everything. But with out ccp direction, i just dont want waste my / your time reading all of that lol

johndrees [8:46 PM] Sweet

ascentior [8:57 PM] I'm not sure how you can think that cap usage to change modes will not effect cap hungry ships more than cap-less ships

ascentior[8:58 PM]A confessor with MWD, Point and guns active, is going to run out of cap. Forget active tank, forget neuts, forget any other trick up your sleeve. If you then need to change modes, you are reducing the length you can stay in the fight

ascentior[8:59 PM]And you think the trade off that svipul might have to switch off it's second neut is equal?

namamai [9:00 PM] ^^ ditto for Hecate as well.

ascentior [9:00 PM] Cap is already a well documented weakness of the confessor, and it should stay that way, but not be made self-inflicted

sardcaid [9:03 PM] I don't think there's an issue documenting and writing out our thoughts @chessur , I'd say do what you're comfortable putting time into

ascentior [9:03 PM] Someone already created a document
ascentior 
[9:04 PM]  
 Mentioned scipioartelius' file 

CCP Focus Group - Tactical Destroyers
Document from Google DriveClick to open in Google Drive

Add Comment

sardcaid [9:04 PM] There's no guarantee that CCP will do more than read suggestions we make, regardless of if we all agree on things or otherwise

ascentior [9:05 PM] of course

ascentior[9:06 PM]but well reasoned discussion is the only thing we can do to try and get the most out of this

sardcaid [9:06 PM] I would add that if we start archiving ideas and discussions, that we make sure fozzie knows or we repeat discussions here

sardcaid[9:06 PM]For posterity

sardcaid[9:07 PM]I dunno @ascentior I think butting heads like rams sounds fun too!

ascentior [9:07 PM] Fozzie a) is logging everything and b) knows how to slack and will check the docs

ascentior[9:07 PM]That's my forte :simple_smile:

chessur [9:14 PM] @ascentior obviously changes would need to be made, and a more fleshed out idea of cap for mode switch. I am simply throwing ideas out there. It has become apparent that no one is willing to go anywhere with it, in favor of other fixes. I was going to let it drop

chessur[9:15 PM]@sardcaid then when I get home, i will throw everything on the table- find out what sticks

ascentior [9:17 PM] I can see that some sort of penalty for mode switching could be good. Perhaps something like 10 seconds of negative effects from the mode you switched from?

ascentior[9:18 PM]Then again, it makes it feel like we're forcing people to min-max and not play the modes

syenna-celeste [9:18 PM] Which is the opposite of what we want.

syenna-celeste[9:18 PM](not playing modes that is)

syenna-celeste[9:18 PM]And you could achieve the same effect without putting in artificial negatives just by putting a lot more stat weight into each mode.

ascentior [9:19 PM] Yeah, that is seeming like the most comfortable solution for us

suitonia [9:19 PM] @johndrees: Changing the other T3D propulsion modes to the Hecate propulsion mode

suitonia[9:19 PM]I think we discussed this a bit

suitonia[9:19 PM]General Consesus is that Confessor/Svipul base speed is OP, Hecate propulsion mode and base speed is really well refined and balanced

suitonia[9:20 PM]there is some concern with regard to AB fit confessor PVE fits I guess

suitonia[9:20 PM]but aside from that

suitonia[9:20 PM]I don't think theres any real objections to the fact that the Svipul/Confessor base speeds are broken in propulsion mode, the hecate propulsion mode is a lot more eloquent and balanced

ascentior [9:21 PM] Again, don't forget armor fits. Base speed is one thing. Adding plates and armor rigs makes it a very different thing

suitonia [9:21 PM] Yes, in regard to nerfing confessor base speed and lowering mass with prop bonus on propulsion mode

suitonia[9:21 PM]50% reduction in armor plate penalty could be used

suitonia[9:21 PM]as a role bonus

suitonia[9:22 PM]if plate fits become too bulky

suitonia[9:22 PM]just like the armor layering skill but as a role bonus

ascentior [9:22 PM] A plated and rigged confessor is 432m/s in prop mode, 828m/s/s with ab on. Which is not a speedy boat

suitonia [9:22 PM] that skill is in the game so CCP can easily add it as an atttribute to a ship

suitonia[9:22 PM]No, but it's still faster than most combat frigates in the game

syenna-celeste [9:22 PM] It isn't slow either given it's plated and rigged with an AB.

suitonia [9:22 PM] 432m/s is still faster than a Tormentor

suitonia[9:23 PM]for a comparison

suitonia[9:23 PM]and thats an unrigged tormentor

sardcaid [9:23 PM] It's not slow at all when you consider its matching with combat frigates favorably

ascentior [9:23 PM] Yeah, in speed mode though... it should be fast in speed mode

suitonia [9:23 PM] what would be wrong if it was 213m/s (hecate speed) but 828m/s with AB on (If you have to give it an AB bonus... I'm not convinced)

ascentior [9:24 PM] and with an AB on, it's still slower than a torm, for example

suitonia [9:24 PM] no but it matters when comparing MWD fits vs Scram brawl ships

suitonia[9:24 PM]i.e. beam kite confessor gets scrammed+webbed by a Frigate

suitonia[9:24 PM]then tracks said frigate absolutely perfectly because it has higher base speed

suitonia[9:25 PM]with no counter play

suitonia[9:25 PM]unlike the slicer for example

suitonia[9:25 PM]which will die to an atron due to tracking if it gets on top of it

suitonia[9:25 PM]and if it retained AB on speeds, but lower base speeds

ascentior [9:26 PM] I see where you're coming from

syenna-celeste [9:26 PM] So realitycheck. Yes, losing some AB speed will hurt PvE, but will it make the kind of PvE that's being done with these (WRs and C13s) impossible or otherwise obstructively difficult? Is the PvE that's currently being done sensible and are people on the whole happy with it?

suitonia [9:26 PM] there is more dynamic between mwd kite fits and ab brawling fits

suitonia[9:26 PM]and cruisers can neut off the ab

suitonia[9:26 PM]and then track well

syenna-celeste [9:26 PM] Because from a PvP perspective these are all good changes.

suitonia [9:26 PM] as more counter

ascentior [9:26 PM] Losing AB speed will not only hurt PVE. It restricts options for PVP as well

sardcaid [9:27 PM] Here's another question, related to oversized props - should prop mode benefit oversized props, such as a moderate agility bonus with mwd speed?

syenna-celeste [9:28 PM] Oversized props need to ?_die_?.

sardcaid [9:28 PM] Personally I like tying agility to prop mode

suitonia [9:28 PM] If you nerf base speed and give lower mass and prop bonus on propulsion mode

suitonia[9:28 PM]it will nerf oversized prop

suitonia[9:28 PM]because they will gain less from 10mn ab

suitonia[9:28 PM]since lower mass means the addittional mass matters more

suitonia[9:29 PM]i.e. if you rebalance the prop mode with mass/prop bonus, and lower base speed so that prop on speeds are the same

suitonia[9:29 PM]then 10mn ab would be nerfed

ascentior [9:29 PM] lowering mass is also a double penalty for plate fits

sardcaid [9:29 PM] Right, which makes it questionable with fitting requirements if oversized prop will even remain remotely viable, which I think is a shame

suitonia [9:29 PM] Yes, which is why I discussed a 50% reduction in armor plate penalty role bonus

suitonia[9:29 PM]for the confessor

suitonia[9:30 PM]Yes Sard, the flat line speeds would be reduced

suitonia[9:30 PM]but with a 66% agility bonus like hecate

suitonia[9:30 PM]you would have more turning speed

suitonia[9:30 PM]so it's likely that oversized prop would still be just as viable

suitonia[9:30 PM]you would probably have similar speeds when using 10mn ab to mitigate damage

suitonia[9:31 PM]just flat line (AKA running away) speed would be lower

sardcaid [9:31 PM] I wasn't sure if hecate had agility on prop, that's pretty much what I like and had in mind

ascentior [9:31 PM] Why not just have the bonuses applied to 1mn and 5mn?

suitonia [9:31 PM] yes, it has 6.00 align with defensive/sharpshooter, 2.00 align with prop mode

sardcaid [9:31 PM] Though massive bonuses like 66.6% make me leery

ascentior [9:31 PM] Assuming there's no technical issue with that

suitonia [9:31 PM] 66.6% is a triple agility bonus

suitonia[9:31 PM]because its 1/0.3333

sardcaid [9:32 PM] Base agility is fairly butts then?

suitonia [9:32 PM] I dont see the problem with that honestly

suitonia[9:32 PM]yes

suitonia[9:32 PM]nerf them to 6s agility outside prop mode

suitonia[9:32 PM]2s agility in prop mode

suitonia[9:32 PM]which is basically instawarp

sardcaid [9:32 PM] Yeah, then its fine and adds loads of validation to the mode

suitonia [9:32 PM] which is way better for newer players

sardcaid [9:32 PM] Agility is a great player skill attribute to play with

suitonia [9:32 PM] since the whole instawarp mechanic of switching from speed to sharp/defence at 50% align is weird and unitituative for new players

sardcaid [9:33 PM] For small or fast moving ships

ascentior [9:33 PM] I don't think it's that weird and unintuitive. The very first time I undocked a Confessor, I thought 'This should make me warp faster' and was right

sardcaid [9:34 PM] Uhh

suitonia [9:34 PM] It's unnesscarily complex

sardcaid [9:34 PM] Mode switch for instawarp is a terrible gimmick

suitonia [9:34 PM] why keep it

ascentior [9:34 PM] And I think it's things like that, that rewards players for experimenting. Imagine when a new player figures that trick out, they're a bloody genius!

suitonia [9:34 PM] its like cloak mwd "trick"

suitonia[9:34 PM]there is no skill in using it

sardcaid [9:34 PM] Exploit

sardcaid[9:34 PM]Oh there's skill

sardcaid[9:35 PM]Just does not fit into intent of mechanic or game flavor

suitonia [9:35 PM] once you know how the mechanic works its pretty easy to perform both

suitonia[9:35 PM]also there is a 5s leeway on cloaking from where you can still activate modules

suitonia[9:35 PM]so you don't even need to be "fast"

ascentior [9:36 PM] I don't think something has to be difficult to achieve to be rewarding, but if it's a new tactic that you learn either from experienced players or by yourself, you feel more in-the-know

sardcaid [9:36 PM] Preaching to the choir here

ascentior [9:36 PM] like warping to a plex gate at 10km

syenna-celeste [9:37 PM] both cloakywarp and modeswitch warp are really shitty mechanics. but then so's <2seconds to warp just by sitting in propmode.

sardcaid [9:37 PM] Agreed

syenna-celeste [9:37 PM] Either way you're borderline invulnerable in lowsec.

suitonia [9:37 PM] At least <2s warp is easy to understand for new players

syenna-celeste [9:37 PM] That doesn't make it a good mechanic.

suitonia [9:37 PM] and the agility boost is an interesting game mechanic outside of warping away from camps

suitonia[9:38 PM]Ok but you can already warp <2.0s

syenna-celeste [9:38 PM] Oh definitely. If it wasn't I'd be saying drop it.

suitonia [9:38 PM] it's just contrived

sardcaid [9:38 PM] Even in prop mode I feel a dessie should have dessie agility, perhaps superior given the mode choice

suitonia [9:38 PM] The hecate feels so much better than the others

suitonia[9:38 PM]btw webbed Svipul in prop mode takes 59% of damage from HAMs that Hecate takes

suitonia[9:39 PM]to put the power of the prop mode into perspective

syenna-celeste [9:39 PM] If we have to bring them to a baseline, the Hecate is that line.

syenna-celeste[9:39 PM]It's fucking perfect.

suitonia [9:39 PM] almost half damage from cruiser close range missiles

suitonia[9:39 PM]I think its stupid

suitonia[9:39 PM]that you take less DPS from most cruiser weapons in speed mode

suitonia[9:39 PM]than in defence mode

mikeazariah [9:40 PM] Mind if I speak up as an observer?

suitonia [9:40 PM] Sure

mikeazariah [9:40 PM] 2 things

sardcaid [9:40 PM] I do, MAKE IT BRIEF

mikeazariah [9:40 PM] 1) great google doc ascentior, nic eto have notes in one place

sardcaid [9:40 PM] D:<

ascentior [9:40 PM] not my doc :disappointed:

ascentior[9:41 PM]@scipioartelius:

mikeazariah [9:41 PM] 2) maybe one of the items ought to be what you guys think the ship role or purpose of the t3d should be before you design them

mikeazariah[9:41 PM]paint the target then shoot at it

mikeazariah[9:41 PM]that's it, I am in quiet mode again

ascentior [9:41 PM] Yeah, we did kind of blaze past that part of the conversation

sardcaid [9:42 PM] Fozzies initial request is in pinned messages

suitonia [9:42 PM] CCP Fozzie wants to make the ships more fun to fly while providing more opportunities to demonstrate skill, and reducing the more troublesome aspects of T3Ds.

sardcaid [9:43 PM] I agree that everyone writing down goals and ideas would be good starting place, though chatting as now is healthy

suitonia [9:43 PM] I think the discussions we had about spool up of mode switching, and balance of specific modes ties into the 'more fun/demonstration of skill' part

scipioartelius [9:44 PM] Yeah chatting is healthy. Writing it down will help us focus. Always going to be general chat at the start anyways (and all the way through I'm sure)

suitonia [9:44 PM] and the troublesome aspects of T3D are their damage mitigation (Sig, base speed of Svipul/confessor), and some issues with the Svipul in regards to fits with dual neuts being 'too easy'

ascentior [9:44 PM] I would say the damage mitigation issue is as pointed above, the fact that speed mode does more than tank mode

suitonia [9:45 PM] Ultimately I feel like the role of a Destroyer is to deal high damage, with projection/tracking that really threatens frigates, while being weak to cruisers that can catch them

scipioartelius [9:45 PM] ^^^ yeah I agree

syenna-celeste [9:46 PM] Pretty much a perfect definition.

ascentior [9:49 PM] I think the role of a T3 Destroyer should add another angle to that game play. The ability to get in place to deal that damage, then get out.

ascentior[9:49 PM]I LOVE the idea of combat probes and warping around grid. Unfortunately, due to deadspace, we don't get to use it much in FW

syenna-celeste [9:51 PM] fintarue's Hecate video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nvftpmw2gQ&feature=youtu.be) demonstrates ?_really_? well what T3D gameplay should look like in my head.
YouTube
Fintarue Fin
Episode 4: The Hecate
 


scipioartelius [9:51 PM] Clearly there can be specialised roles that don't fit that (eg. inderdictors, Mayne new T2D) but for a Combat/Attack destroyer it should be the ability to get in and apply high damage and strong against smalls targets but susceptible if caught by Cruisers. At the moment, the ability of the Svipul and Confessor to disengage is OP in that regard

suitonia [9:51 PM] I like the Hecate for that reason

suitonia[9:52 PM]it has 3.00 align with MWD on (better than dramiel) while going above pack frigate speed, and 2.00 align with prop off, which is exceptional. But once its scrammed it moves like a BC

suitonia[9:52 PM]so it can evade fights, and get into them very well, the high agility allows it to slingshot kiters and juke really well, and get in and out really fast

suitonia[9:52 PM]but if it gets caught by a cruiser then it's going to have a bad time

namamai [9:52 PM] ?*nod*?  Ditto for the Jackdaw.

namamai[9:53 PM]Huge agility, abysmal speed.

syenna-celeste [9:53 PM] And it's beefy enough to eat up the damage from a frigate or three, but not a cruiser with neuts et al.

suitonia [9:53 PM] yeah

suitonia[9:53 PM]hecate can tank 3 frigates easy

suitonia[9:53 PM]but a cruiser with a neut and a web+scram the hecate can never run or mitigate damage from

suitonia[9:54 PM]unlike the svipul and confessor

suitonia[9:54 PM]the agility is really good too for slingshotting

suitonia[9:54 PM]You can easily catch ships like slicers and condors in it

syenna-celeste [9:57 PM] Should they make viable line ships? It's a bit of an elephant in the room that we've just created.

syenna-celeste[9:58 PM]Plated confessor gangs and massed LML Jackdaws are semi common in today's game after all.

suitonia [9:58 PM] Would changing the speed mode effect that gameplay?

suitonia[9:58 PM]Most orbit 500 boys are in sharpshooter mode the whole fight, and just go defence mode when they get yellow boxed

namamai [9:59 PM] ^^ exactly.  AB rail Harpy went all of 600m/s, was still the dominant line frigate for years

scipioartelius [9:59 PM] I don't see why changing their speed would affect their fleet capability in the way it's been discussed.

syenna-celeste [9:59 PM] I don't think it would make a great difference but the question has to be asked. I can only draw on what my alliance flies in that regard.

suitonia [10:00 PM] I'm pretty sure 0.0 alliances only use speed mode when roaming around, or if FC calls for it

suitonia[10:01 PM]and the extra agility would actually be a benefit there

suitonia[10:01 PM]since it would mean the average line member could catch up better, and move better

johndrees [10:01 PM] They can function as fleet ships but they scale poorly due to low ehp compared with other fleet options. Which I think is intentional and balanced. (edited)

suitonia [10:01 PM] expecting 100 grunts to do the mode switch mechanic perfectly in TIDI for the instawarp is not realistic for example

suitonia[10:02 PM]but 2.0 agility base on prop mode is much better

johndrees [10:02 PM] @suitonia I'll add the mwd idea when I get back to my pc.

johndrees[10:02 PM]Any other big ones that I missed?

namamai [10:03 PM] gdocs should be back up now, btw

scipioartelius [10:03 PM] I'll take a look when I jump on my computer in about 30 min.

suitonia [10:05 PM] I think that is the bulk of what has been discussed

johndrees [10:12 PM] Ok cool. I thought so as well.

johndrees [10:34 PM] @namamai I'll be sure to link the doc as soon as I'm back to my pc.

selto_black [10:37 PM] Gah! this new probe thng on sisi

selto_black[10:38 PM]how do i resize my probes?

scipioartelius [10:38 PM] :simple_smile: can't you drag from an edge of the sphere anymore in the new interface?

selto_black [10:38 PM] im trying and its not working

selto_black[10:39 PM]grr

scipioartelius [10:39 PM] ok. jumping on to look

selto_black [10:40 PM] im trying to get a short video of some confessor pve so you can see how it works...

scipioartelius [10:43 PM] Chance Ravinne's video on the new interface sort showed it's a little buggy at the moment, so might be a one off. Just checking now

selto_black [10:43 PM] kk

scipioartelius [10:51 PM] ok, so hold Alt and then drag one of the probe cones that show in red

scipioartelius[10:51 PM]doesn't reposition like Alt normally does

selto_black [10:51 PM] Ah!! much better

fintarue [11:58 PM] I think making the other t3d speed modes more in line with the Hecate suits well.  Like suitonia said, the base speed is horrendously high.  I think make the svipul/confessor speed modes similar to the hecate where it only applies to AB/MWD makes sense.  The biggest problem I see with that potentially is that even though a ship will have a better tank in defense mode, it's going to get hit that much harder as well.

selto_black [11:59 PM] https://youtu.be/TiPIPy-vLIE
YouTube
Mersaveous Black
C13 Site FFS

fintarue [11:59 PM] For PvE how often do you use speed mode over defense?  I know while running c2 in a confessor/svipul we usually sit in defense because the extra sig radius reduction combined with increased resists worked out better than the extra speed

selto_black [11:59 PM] if you wanna see why mwd wouldnt work for c13 check about 6:30


-----
October 10th
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selto_black[12:00 AM]check the video and see how often i switch

selto_black[12:00 AM]mostly im in sharp shooter

selto_black[12:00 AM]also its different for  each site

fintarue [12:01 AM] Also Syenna, the Hecate feels like what not just the t3d, but a destroyer should be able to do.  Even though in that video I'm able to fight a cruiser, it was a stupidly close fight, and I was taking all the damage ever.  I think that fits perfectly in line with what to expect for a t3d, where it may be possible, but will be stupidly hard.  And I didn't have neut pressure on me in that fight when many other cruisers would have that

selto_black [12:02 AM] also im ashamed at how slow i ran this site

fintarue [12:02 AM] Something I don't understand, you switched to speed mode but weren't even moving

selto_black [12:02 AM] my krabing skills are rusty

selto_black[12:03 AM]i should have been in sharpshooter

selto_black[12:03 AM]oops

selto_black[12:03 AM]but as to why i just sat there, it was where the next spawn was

fintarue [12:03 AM] Ya, that's kinda what I mean.  When I was running WH, I swapped between sharp and defense, so a MWD bonus wouldn't affect this either way

selto_black [12:04 AM] i usually run in speed or sharpshooter

fintarue [12:06 AM] To reply to some of the previous suggestions on mode switch.  I don't think changing the timers is optimal.  Jackdaw and Svipul are already good examples of ships that primarily just stay in speed mode, and increased timers would likely encourage that.  If the modes are an issue, it would likely be more pertinent to look at the bonuses given by the modes themselves

fintarue[12:07 AM]Also, GJ on almost getting volleyed.  I've always found that when it comes to actually tanking, the reduced sig and extra resists does more than the extra speed

fintarue[12:07 AM]That was crazy lol blew right through all the layers

selto_black [12:07 AM] yeah

selto_black[12:08 AM]if my sig was any larger it would have been ding, km

selto_black[12:08 AM]or rather loss mail

fintarue [12:08 AM] lol

fintarue[12:11 AM]This was a fight on stream last night.  Again, I think this suits to what the t3d should be like. https://zkillboard.com/kill/49501401/ Even though I was able to tank them for ages, They had excellent piloting and were able to exploit the weakness of range control the hecate has.  I like that I can hold up well against small frig gangs, but I'm going to take a beating, and any cruisers are likely to mess me up fierce

zkillboard.com
Hecate | Fintarue | Killmail
Fintarue (Rifterlings) lost their Hecate in Tama (The Citadel). Final Blow by Lonestar Shwartz (Rapid Withdrawal) flying in a Svipul. Total Value: 0.00 ISK

scipioartelius [12:12 AM] That was the fight where he killed the Incursus and Slasher right? That was pretty epic if it was that one

scipioartelius[12:12 AM]actually probably not that fight

fintarue [12:12 AM] Even the t2 fit version of that I've found puts up a good, close to even fight against 2-3 frigs at a time.  Right now 2-3 frigs beat up most t1 dessies straight out

scipioartelius [12:12 AM] ?*you*?

fintarue [12:12 AM] It was that fight Scip

scipioartelius [12:12 AM] that was great. I was watching the stream

fintarue [12:13 AM] Those were some tough fights that were very dependent on pilot skill, I was happy to throw stuff at that gang for those fights.  I got em in the end lol

syenna-celeste [12:13 AM] i've shamelessly stolen that fit. only kept the a-type admittedly but jesus christ it's so fun

scipioartelius [12:14 AM] Yeah I saw your killboard. Cleaned them all up in the end

selto_black [12:14 AM] Im training up the hecate as we speak

selto_black[12:14 AM]sadly im not rich enough to keep up the habit

fintarue [12:15 AM] That rail fit in the vid is also hella fun.  I suggest practicing with an eris since it gets all the bonuses in a nice package, but has less tank and defense abilities.

fintarue[12:15 AM]That brawling fit does great even t2 fit

fintarue[12:15 AM]Use a t2 armor rep instead of an anci

fintarue[12:15 AM]Still tanks a good 200ish dps

fintarue[12:15 AM]dirt cheap

scipioartelius [12:15 AM] I'm also one for not necessarily changing the mode switching mechanics. The mode switching is part of what makes these ships both unique and fun to fly. I really enjoy flying the Hecate even though by comparison to the Svipul and Confessor, it's much more in balance with other ships. The mode switching provides for skill and some really interesting gameplay. I'd hate for that to be lost in this. Better in my view, to adjust the attributes/bonuses and leave the switching as is

scipioartelius[12:16 AM]selto, you don't need to dead space or faction fit the Hecate

scipioartelius[12:16 AM]T2 works also

syenna-celeste [12:16 AM] 
>Better in my view, to adjust the attributes/bonuses and leave the switching as is

+1. You can encourage mode switching and/or punish poor mode choices just by shifting basic stats around.

fintarue [12:17 AM] Yup, toss on a normal eanm and t2 rep and it still heats for 250 dps tank.  That's plenty for frig gangs of 2-3

johndrees [12:17 AM] I actually think this conversation brings up a good point, do we feel that the hecate is the most balanced of the t3d and if so, are similar numbers what the other t3's should strive for?

fintarue [12:17 AM] Absolutely the most balanced

scipioartelius [12:17 AM] Yes, definitely the most balanced

scipioartelius[12:17 AM]and still tonnes of fun to fly

fintarue [12:17 AM] It has solid weaknesses in each mode, and you really have to think about how to use the modes

syenna-celeste [12:18 AM] And all the modes are useful.

scipioartelius [12:18 AM] Given that it fits well, especially in lowsec, it still maintains good stats overall on the killboard

syenna-celeste [12:18 AM] It does have "brawl = defense" to an extent but not to the degree that the others do.

fintarue [12:18 AM] When not in defense mode it's tank is only slightly better than a t1 dessy, but very solid in defense

scipioartelius [12:18 AM] https://zkillboard.com/ship/35683/
zkillboard.com
Hecate | Ship
Hecate: 46,726 ships destroyed and 9,098 ships lost.

scipioartelius[12:18 AM]83% efficiency for kills and ISK

scipioartelius[12:18 AM]so it's not like it is struggling

johndrees [12:18 AM] A agree, I think it's the most balanced and it's got some unique and fun aspects to it as well.

fintarue [12:19 AM] It scales most appropriately with isk/links as well because of the inherent weaknesses of it

scipioartelius [12:19 AM] Yes

fintarue [12:19 AM] Links cannot make up for how much it struggles with range or neuts

johndrees [12:20 AM] I have flown it as a kiting rail platform to some success in nullsec. So yeah, overall it's in a good spot with cool options.

scipioartelius [12:21 AM] Yes, as a 150mm Railgun platform and even with 125mm Railguns it still performs well

fintarue [12:21 AM] It snipes very well also, 250 dps out to 80km.  While I think that's extreme and something I'd like to see nerfed on fessor/jackdaw/hecate, it's proof that it can do it at the moment

scipioartelius [12:23 AM] Yeah. Overall I think in any balance pass, the Hecate and arguably the Jackdaw, don't need anything changed. Jackdaw could probably do with some more DPS, but that's more a missiles issue. Overall the ship is ok

fintarue [12:23 AM] I dislike the jackdaw's extreme tanking ability.  It's pretty much entirely unbreakable by a hecate

johndrees [12:24 AM] Well previously we discussed taking a mid and adding a low which helps both those issues.

johndrees[12:24 AM]For the jackdaw.

scipioartelius [12:24 AM] Yeah, that's a good idea actually

fintarue [12:24 AM] Ya John, I think that also opens up more options in general for players since it allows them to make up either dps or speed which the jackdaw is abysmal with

johndrees [12:24 AM] Sutonia brought it up last night and most agreed.

johndrees[12:25 AM]I'd certainly be in favor of that.

syenna-celeste [12:25 AM] i'm having second thoughts on that.

johndrees [12:25 AM] Any reason?

syenna-celeste [12:26 AM] having slept on it i think i'd rather see an increase to its existing damage bonus, and/or a change over to the Hecate's propmode.

syenna-celeste[12:26 AM]Having the extra mid provides a lot of utility, outside of the small gang setting.

syenna-celeste[12:26 AM](and in it as well for that matter)

johndrees [12:26 AM] Well, that's a much less elegant solution in my opinion.

johndrees[12:27 AM]5 mid slots is still a lot of utility.

fintarue [12:27 AM] 5 mids isn't enough for utility already?  There's only 2 other small ships with that many that I know of, the flycatcher, and the hookbill.  Both already known for their prowess in midslot utility

johndrees [12:27 AM] Even for fleet work.

fintarue [12:28 AM] Forcing people to spread ewar out and to think about their ewar a little more used to a be a staple of fleet support ships.  And it's not like the maulus doesn't make up for almost any damp concerns

syenna-celeste [12:30 AM] If rockets were less reliant on a web then I'd be inclined to agree.

fintarue [12:30 AM] But that's also where the cut would be in the tanking ability on rocket jackdaws. They can still fit a web, and they get the extra low for more damage

johndrees [12:30 AM] Well, with 5 mid slots it's still very realistic to fit a scram and web.

scipioartelius [12:31 AM] ^^^

fintarue [12:31 AM] With that extra low you'll likely see things similar to what people do with the hookbill too

syenna-celeste [12:31 AM] So you'd fit scram, web, MWD and a 2 slot tank?

fintarue [12:31 AM] And those are very solid frigates with 5 mids

johndrees [12:31 AM] Yeah for sure senna.

fintarue [12:33 AM] All of the other t3d are forced to sacrifice some dps or utility for tank

fintarue[12:33 AM]The jackdaw currently doesn't do that at all.  Even with 5 mids it'd still have way more utility potential

syenna-celeste [12:34 AM] It doesn't really have any DPS to sacrifice.

fintarue [12:34 AM] It won't be though

fintarue[12:34 AM]3 lows

johndrees [12:34 AM] It would if it had an addition low slot.

fintarue [12:34 AM] means more bcu

fintarue[12:34 AM]It'd gain dps

fintarue[12:34 AM]rockets with 2 BCU do 300 dps cold, that's faction rockets

johndrees [12:34 AM] Tasty

fintarue [12:34 AM] That puts it almost even with a well tanked confessor or svipul

syenna-celeste [12:35 AM] 280 cold.

syenna-celeste[12:35 AM]And that's CN BCUs.

johndrees [12:35 AM] Anyway, it's hard for me to see a significant downside to that change.

fintarue [12:35 AM] which is 50 more than it gets now by using 2 bcu and no damage control

scipioartelius [12:36 AM] the way I see it, the issue around scram/web/mwd/2 slot tank is really an issue mainly for solo pvp. Not to ignore that, because I do a lot of solo pvp too. But I think the small gang/fleet based pvp won't have the same issue because they'll have specific support for any gaps they have in the core of the gang/fleet. So I think the idea of the switch of slots is pretty elegant really. Opens up options for tank/DPS for everyone, while still not excluding the use of the ship solo

fintarue [12:37 AM] Syenna, even on a 2 slot tank, I'm looking at close to 20k EHP

johndrees [12:37 AM] I'll be honest with you guys, I know the web helps a bit with the damage application but if you're not fighting some afterburner fit frigate it is totally possible to apply reasonable dps with just a scram.

scipioartelius [12:37 AM] yes

johndrees [12:37 AM] And it remains an option.

fintarue [12:38 AM] [Jackdaw, Discussion]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Medium Shield Extender II
5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Scrambler II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
[Empty Med slot]
Rocket Launcher II, Inferno Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Inferno Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Inferno Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Inferno Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Inferno Rage Rocket
[Empty High slot]
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Small Core Defense Field Extender II
Small Core Defense Field Extender II

fintarue[12:38 AM]Gives 17k EHP cold invuln, and that's before the DC from a 3rd low slot

fintarue[12:39 AM]Or say fuckit and put a 3rd bcu on

johndrees [12:39 AM] There are lots of nice options and you stop seeing the way way over tanked jackdaws especially in lowsec.

syenna-celeste [12:40 AM] I've got a bit of "my baby ;_;" going on with the jackdaw. And actually, yeah, reviewing numbers you've sold me back.

fintarue [12:40 AM] One of the first testing videos I did with a jackdaw was face tanking a polarized gank vigilant.  1100 dps.  No issue, no links, no crystals, still mwd and scram

fintarue[12:42 AM]Just to compare to the most broke of the 4, the double MSE svipul has around 20k ehp, 400 dps, and no web, plus worse range.  If that helps give you an idea

syenna-celeste [12:42 AM] You can compensate for tracking with autos though.

syenna-celeste[12:42 AM]No such luck with rockets.

fintarue [12:42 AM] But a TD straight up shuts down AC

fintarue[12:43 AM]and rockets will always apply something

fintarue[12:43 AM]specially webbed, almost full dps all the time

syenna-celeste [12:43 AM] Idk. I'm less worried about it than I had been after toying with it again.

syenna-celeste[12:43 AM](the -1 mid suggestion that is)

selto_black [12:44 AM] more lows would allow for a purger fit daw more eaisly

johndrees [12:44 AM] :)

johndrees[12:44 AM]Hurray!

fintarue [12:44 AM] You can also do double BCU and an overdrive which brings cold speed up to 2300 in speed mode

fintarue[12:44 AM]That's solid

selto_black [12:44 AM] purger fit daw is a scarry thought

fintarue [12:44 AM] Right at hecate level

johndrees [12:44 AM] CCP quick apply it!

fintarue [12:45 AM] with 1 less mid it'll cut that down though selto, so it still wont' be nuts

selto_black [12:45 AM] You only have so much pg to fit shield extenders though

selto_black[12:45 AM]those extra mids would likely go to tackle and a booster

fintarue [12:46 AM] The fit I pasted has enough pg for 1 MSE without needing fitting mods.  It can fit a nos/neut easily

selto_black [12:46 AM] though im no fitting god

fintarue [12:46 AM] So if you wanna go crazy on tank, gotta use an MAPC or ACR

fintarue[12:46 AM]Which is good balance

johndrees [12:46 AM] Fun fact back when the svipul first came out I used a large shield extender on it :)

fintarue [12:46 AM] Yup, 40k ehp go

selto_black [12:47 AM] PDS' dont scale well on small ships do they?

scipioartelius [12:47 AM] yeah. it was crazy

fintarue [12:47 AM] Ya Selto, you get more out of MAPC

fintarue[12:47 AM]PDS only gives about 6-7 pg while you get 12 out of a power core

selto_black [12:48 AM] i was thinking extra shield amount and regen would help a passive daw

johndrees [12:48 AM] The first balance pass was pretty heavy on the svipul and it's still a monster. So, what would make it more average like the hecate?

fintarue [12:48 AM] Part of the problem with the svipul, which has been mentioned by a lot of people

syenna-celeste [12:48 AM] MWD specific bonus.

selto_black [12:48 AM] nuking the base speed on speed mode

fintarue [12:48 AM] Is the difference in fitting between arty and AC

syenna-celeste [12:48 AM] And unfucked fitting on its weapons.

selto_black [12:48 AM] this

fintarue [12:48 AM] Arty fit are reasonably well balanced, just a little too fast

fintarue[12:48 AM]But AC have too much PG

scipioartelius [12:49 AM] Yes, totally

johndrees [12:49 AM] Right, arty are already mostly using mwd

fintarue [12:49 AM] This is also a reoccuring problem with lots of minnie ships

johndrees [12:49 AM] Switching to an mwd bonus in speed mode may help.

fintarue [12:49 AM] Many can barely fit AC, and arty you can forget

fintarue[12:49 AM]Well, it'd hafta have a much lower base speed like the hecate does

fintarue[12:49 AM]Which I'm not opposed to

johndrees [12:50 AM] I think it's speed should be left pretty high if not the same as where it is, it's tank should suffer a bit though.

scipioartelius [12:50 AM] Lower base speed and MWD bonus

johndrees [12:50 AM] Yeah, I think that works.

fintarue [12:50 AM] If you wanna leave speed the same, then the tank hasta be changed by either lower it's resists or changing the PG useage for arty/ac

johndrees [12:50 AM] It is minmatar after all, gotta go fast :)

fintarue [12:50 AM] I agree, and right now minnie kinda sucks at going fast

johndrees [12:51 AM] I think lowering the resistances is reasonable.

syenna-celeste [12:51 AM] a rethink on the gap between ac and arty pg isn't going to be a bad idea no matter what happens

scipioartelius [12:51 AM] It's Minnie, so it'll still have higher base speed than Hecate, but removing the AB bonus makes it a bit more vulnerable when tackled

syenna-celeste [12:51 AM] because it isn't t3d limited

selto_black [12:51 AM] in speed mode i think the svipul should go about 2.4k

fintarue [12:51 AM] That's true Scip, but there's less 10mn AB svipuls than there used to be just because of the mass hit they took

johndrees [12:52 AM] Yes I agree that those weapons probably need some work but I'm not sure it's in our official scope to discuss and represents more of a tangent than anything.

johndrees[12:52 AM]@selto_black I fully disagree.

selto_black [12:52 AM] Oh?

fintarue [12:52 AM] Yes and no, just because it directly has an affect on why the svipul is able to do double MSE

selto_black [12:52 AM] As of now it goes 3.2 with my skills

selto_black[12:53 AM]with mwd

johndrees [12:53 AM] 2800 is the sweet spot.

selto_black [12:53 AM] was trying to lowball

johndrees [12:53 AM] Lol

fintarue [12:54 AM] 10mn AB in speed do 2200 cold no snakes

scipioartelius [12:54 AM] https://ccpfocusgroups.slack.com/archives/tactical-destroyers/p1444438312002034 I agree, there are a lot less, but it is still a bit too powerful, whether people fit the 10MN and suffer on the inertia, or they fit 1MN
fintarue
That's true Scip, but there's less 10mn AB svipuls than there used to be just because of the mass hit they took
Oct 10th at 12:51 AM

johndrees [12:54 AM] I have really felt a shift in how viable the kiting fits for t3d are since they buffed combat bc effective range. I think that should be considered and is reason to maybe go easy on the nerfing.

fintarue [12:55 AM] Ok, let's shift gears a bit on how we think of it, lemme propose something real fast

fintarue[12:55 AM]Before the t3d came out there was a huge increase in the use of Interdictors as a style of Assault Destroyer

fintarue[12:55 AM]What if we compared speeds to that

fintarue[12:55 AM]Those*

fintarue[12:56 AM]I believe the sabre does around 2500-2600 with mwd

fintarue[12:56 AM]That's reasonable

fintarue[12:56 AM]Very

fintarue[12:56 AM]It's similar to AF speed, just a tad slower than minnie AF

johndrees [12:56 AM] Poor af :(

fintarue [12:56 AM] The speeds for the interdictors are great

scipioartelius [12:56 AM] My view on how hard to nerf is to take the video posted on Thursday about not perfectly balancing and keep a slight imbalance to encourage people to think about counters. Obviously, that's more CCPs area than mine and not trying to be an amateur game designer. I just think the introduction of the T3D has added a lot of fun to pvp. Would hate to nerf hard and remove the fun they provide. They should still be a desirable ship

johndrees [12:57 AM] Agreed

fintarue [12:57 AM] I love the t3d they're my favorite class of ship as a whole

johndrees [12:57 AM] So would you essentially be in favor of leaving the hecate as is?

fintarue [12:57 AM] Ideally? Pretty much

fintarue[12:58 AM]I've struggled to think of anything that seems silly on it.  Even if you got crazy with links and the tank, it's still easily volleyed and shutdown by even a few small neuts

johndrees [12:58 AM] I think so as well. Especially since I think we have not seen the combat BC'S fully return to the meta but they counter the t3d fairly well right now.

syenna-celeste [12:58 AM] If the others can be brought into line with the Hecate, yep.

scipioartelius [12:59 AM] Hecate, yes leave it as it is. If there was any change, I'd almost suggest dropping the DPS slightly and adding 2 drones for a bit better application at range. Vulnerable DPS because they can be killed, but that's just a "if they have to be changed" suggestion. I personally don't think the Hecate needs a change

syenna-celeste [12:59 AM] plz no

scipioartelius [1:00 AM] lol

fintarue [1:00 AM] I think that's pretty reasonable.  I'd rather not change the dps, I think it suits it perfectly since the really crazy high dps either sacrifice the armor tank, or all tank at all

syenna-celeste [1:00 AM] pure gunboats are so much more fun than more drones

johndrees [1:00 AM] So if the hecate is ok and the jackdaw isn't that terrible, especially if the mid to lowslot change was made, is that two down two to go in your opinions?

scipioartelius [1:00 AM] Yeah, I really love the crazy high DPS too. It's awesome....if you can get to apply it

johndrees [1:00 AM] Well that's an opinion syenna, one I happen to agree with lol but yeah.

fintarue [1:00 AM] The only other thing I'd like to see across the board is lowered scan res and lock range while in sharp.

fintarue[1:00 AM]More lock range than scan res

scipioartelius [1:01 AM] john, yes in my view, I think that Hecate and Jackdaw seems a fair bit of agreement. Svipul and Confessor to go

fintarue [1:01 AM] I'd like the sniper fits to be forced to consider, not need, but consider a sebo incase of damps.  CAuse right now they don't need to at all

johndrees [1:01 AM] I'm not sure that scan res bonus is interesting game play anyway. It's intruding into other specialist ships roles as an insta locking ship.

syenna-celeste [1:01 AM] I don't see why the scan res bonus is a thing at all, and the lock range bonus is too strong for all of them

fintarue [1:02 AM] Instead of scan res, I'd love to see a bigger increase in ECM resistance

johndrees [1:02 AM] That would be pretty killer.

fintarue [1:02 AM] That also forces players to consider sharp mode even more if they get jammed

fintarue[1:02 AM]Another option for mode switching

fintarue[1:02 AM]Lose your tank or speed in order to be able to even fight back

johndrees [1:02 AM] Yeah

fintarue [1:02 AM] Make a choice

johndrees [1:02 AM] It'd be good gameplay.

scipioartelius [1:02 AM] yeah that sounds interesting

johndrees [1:03 AM] Damnit boys I feel like we are finally making some progress :simple_smile:

fintarue [1:03 AM] Now we gotta let the EU guys get ahold of it and chew on it lol

scipioartelius [1:03 AM] well, always going to take a couple of days to start to get settled into discussion.

syenna-celeste [1:03 AM] wait, we're not in EU anymore?

syenna-celeste [1:03 AM] checks clock

syenna-celeste [1:03 AM] WELP

fintarue [1:03 AM] lolol

fintarue[1:04 AM]I look forward to seeing what people say about the chat logs.  And now this is totally turning meta cause I'm talking about their responses to the chat logs

fintarue[1:04 AM]How's that readers!

johndrees [1:04 AM] I'm sure they will catch up and have lots to say in the morning. I'll make sure to add the mwd thing and the eccm thing to the Google doc list.

johndrees[1:04 AM]Can they read the chats now?

fintarue [1:05 AM] I think Fozzie said something about trying to get them out over the weekend

johndrees [1:05 AM] If so, Hi MOM! o/

fintarue [1:05 AM] and then working on automating it

johndrees [1:05 AM] Uhh, livestream the chat?

johndrees[1:05 AM]Just for fun until he does that?

syenna-celeste [1:05 AM] Probably a daily logs post.

fintarue [1:05 AM] lol I could just set my stream on dessie chat lol

johndrees [1:06 AM] Yeah

johndrees[1:06 AM]That doesn't allow anyone to go back but if they wanted they could follow along.

scipioartelius [1:06 AM] A daily logs post would be good. Having been pretty busy at the end of this week at work, I know I've struggled a touch to keep up until the weekend. Going to be near impossible for others outside the group

fintarue [1:07 AM] Ya, my corp just swapped to slack, and I found out that my iphone4 can't use it lol

fintarue[1:07 AM]So I hafta wait til I get home to get in on this

johndrees [1:07 AM] We are going to have our summary of ideas posted a few times in here and maybe to reddit or something as well.

johndrees[1:07 AM]Hopefully that will help.

scipioartelius [1:08 AM] Fozzie may well be right that the people probably most interested in reading the logs are already in the group, but still good to consider the people outside and how best to deliver the information for them. I imagine some people like Asher and a few others would probably like to consider the discussion in terms of their specific uses

johndrees [1:10 AM] Well there isn't a huge incentive to keep track of the discussion if you're not in it, after all CCP is going to make the actual changes to their game. I can picture the brainstorming we do being pretty frustrating to watch from the outside.

scipioartelius [1:10 AM] yes, I agree. Summaries will be helpful though

selto_black [1:10 AM] You know whats fun? Being able to pve in groups and have everyone feel like they are contributing. I feel that if we can get TD3's in the hands of newbros and point them at manageable targets they could be a powerful retention tool.

fintarue [1:10 AM] I'm enjoying the hell out of this so far

fintarue[1:11 AM]This is as much fun as chatting with rise about the recon rebalances before they happened

scipioartelius [1:11 AM] :simple_smile:

selto_black [1:14 AM] I would also like to +1 the passive daw from the pve side. (the -1mid +1 low suggestion) :simple_smile:

selto_black[1:15 AM]any who off to the gym with me, ill be around on my phone if you need me.

johndrees [1:15 AM] Agreed, I am having a great time.

fintarue [1:15 AM] Yup, I'm off, heading out for the weekend too

fintarue[1:15 AM]o7

johndrees [1:16 AM] o7

selto_black [1:16 AM] 7o

scipioartelius [1:46 AM] o7

johndrees [2:59 AM] I added a couple of the recently discussed ideas to the list.

scipioartelius [3:04 AM] are we still using the same initial doc I linked, or a new one?

selto_black [3:04 AM] i think there are two now

scipioartelius [3:05 AM] ah ok

scipioartelius[3:05 AM]can you link the new one?

scipioartelius[3:05 AM]having two will be confusing. Better to keep in one

johndrees [3:05 AM] The new one is in general chat.

johndrees[3:06 AM]Anyone can edit so don't spread it around lol.

scipioartelius [3:06 AM] ok

johndrees [3:28 AM] Forgot one. Fixed it.

forsot [3:28 AM] you know when this gets posted....

johndrees [3:31 AM] What?

forsot [3:31 AM] everyone will have that link

johndrees [3:32 AM] Yeah, it's a back up link. I'll probably delete it.

johndrees[3:32 AM]I didn't feel like collecting emails.

mikeazariah [3:39 AM] can you add the 'killer of frigs, vulnerable to cruisers'

johndrees [3:47 AM] Of course

selto_black [3:48 AM] with t3ds are being removed from smalls. is that gonna nuke their use case?

johndrees [3:49 AM] No

scipioartelius [3:49 AM] not really. It will hopefully open the door a bit again for AFs, but shouldn't affect viability of T3D in the slightest

johndrees [3:49 AM] https://gyazo.com/994bc58d8c9429ae899d2bb7ba364004
Gyazo (58KB)




johndrees[3:49 AM]There, added it.

johndrees[3:54 AM]So, I know that we're not discussing AF in here as a goal but how fun would it be if they made Assault frigates the frigate equivalent of Attack battlecruisers. As in, they would be pretty lightweight but use medium sized weapons.

johndrees[3:54 AM]Probably have some model problems actually placing the guns but lol, i think it'd be fun.

mikeazariah [3:57 AM] hardest thing you guys will encounter is domain creep.  where discussing on thing makes you want to fix five other things.  Links, AF's, Guns, Ewar . . . etc

mikeazariah[3:58 AM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9Svm8xc1z8
YouTube
AMCCAustralia
Stay On Target
 


johndrees [4:09 AM] well, I know, I was mostly just teasing but I agree.

johndrees [4:23 AM] @ccp_fozzie: Here is my response from the first questions you proposed. Hope I'm not waking you up with a ping.https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_ieer_0n7rdoM6yvdEQBuYjIVh74z4wGDkgNdl4Av2Y/edit?usp=sharing

johndrees[4:23 AM]https://gyazo.com/24cbffbd8a6a632a3b8fddc5051c1b59
Gyazo (75KB)




selto_black [4:23 AM] Someone leaked the image to reddit...

johndrees [4:23 AM] Yeah, I have an alliance mate...

johndrees[4:23 AM]I think he deleted it for me.

selto_black [4:24 AM] he did.

selto_black[4:24 AM]still its out in the wild now

johndrees [4:24 AM] Anyway, there is a picture of the google doc I just linked.

johndrees[4:26 AM]Thoughts?

johndrees[4:26 AM]The whole chat is supposed to be public tomorrow anyway right? So, hopefully the "leak" isn't all that big of a problem. (edited)

johndrees[4:29 AM]I actually was of the impression that people would be watching the chat happen live if they wanted to.

scipioartelius [4:29 AM] looks good

suitonia [4:58 AM] I think it would be better to wait until the full chat is released

suitonia[4:58 AM]before making that public

johndrees [4:58 AM] Read general

suitonia [4:59 AM] ah cool

scipioartelius [4:59 AM] My understanding is everything in this channel will be released public. Not our working document as such unless leaked, but I don't have any problem with the doc being released either

johndrees [4:59 AM] Well technically it's a picture of a doc.

suitonia [4:59 AM] I think the problem with the document is that people will pigeon hole hard on it

johndrees [4:59 AM] Which, I'd be happy to share as well whenever we want.

suitonia [5:00 AM] without having the needed context

suitonia[5:00 AM]and there will just be a bunch of shiteaters on reddit

johndrees [5:00 AM] Yeah, that's why it makes sense to release around the same time as the logs.

suitonia [5:00 AM] (as there always is)

johndrees [5:00 AM] Yeah

suitonia [5:00 AM] OMG WHY NO DISCUSSING OF T3D IN FLEETS ON THAT DOCUMENT

suitonia[5:00 AM]even though we discussed that here

suitonia[5:00 AM]for example

johndrees [5:01 AM] Indeed.

johndrees[5:03 AM]Let the churners churn baby. Can't make everyone happy. It's pretty obvious everyone in here is doing their best to improve the t3d and their balance overall. With context or not you'll always have people being negative. I think we're all in agreement we wait but once the logs are out then I don't see any reason we can't have fun with it and chat with the more reasonable people out there on reddit or other places.

suitonia [5:03 AM] Oh for sure

suitonia[5:04 AM]If you are reading this you've found the super secret message, email Gorski Car with the Code ECMHOOKBILL for a Free PLEX

johndrees [5:04 AM] Ha

scipioartelius [5:05 AM] Given in particular Asher's thread on Reddit, I think we should explicitly consider it somewhere in the document. His concerns are valid, so it's worth ensuring that our discussions on that are included. He (and others) and others, might disagree, but that's also great if there is something there that is easy to refer to

suitonia [5:06 AM] Even if the Focus Group was a small gang circlejerk (Which I personally believe there has been plenty of consideration for PVE, wormhole uses and 0.0 fleet doctrines, Namamai in particular who is part of GoonSwarm theorycrafting and shun a lot of light there for example)

suitonia[5:06 AM]It's not like CCP aren't reading the F&I forums and reddit

suitonia[5:06 AM]so you can always have your say

suitonia[5:06 AM]if you disagree with the consensus of the focus group

johndrees [5:06 AM] from what I read the primary concern was that we're all solo/at pilots and so we don't care about, understand, or appreciate other aspects we may not participate in as often.

scipioartelius [5:07 AM] yes, my reading of it too

scipioartelius[5:08 AM]I don't necessarily agree, but I think it's valid for him to question that.

johndrees [5:09 AM] I think that's a concern simply based on only seeing each individual as their most common aspect. Just because I do solo doesn't mean I don't also FC fleets occasionally. So, pigeonholing of the individuals probably not based on all that much research into each of us.

scipioartelius [5:09 AM] same

suitonia [5:09 AM] The problem with Fleets is that it's hard to find someone who is knowledgeable about fits while still taking part in that playstyle because the majority of players often don't understand, it's mostly the theorycrafters and FCs

suitonia[5:09 AM]Like Namamai for example

suitonia[5:10 AM]Does the average Orbit 500 Grunt in a Harpy understand why the ship is strong

suitonia[5:10 AM]or does he fly it because he is told to and gets SRP for it

johndrees [5:12 AM] Right.

namamai [6:12 AM] The grunts are a bit smarter these days than most people suspect.  Speaking for Goons, at least, our mainfleet doctrines all include alternate mods and a mobile depot in the cargo hold, and you're expected to have all of them and switch appropriately :simple_smile:  But, at the same time, they're counting on theorycrafters to figure out what those mods should be, and what hulls to go for.

namamai[6:13 AM]But this is a diversion.

namamai[6:14 AM]Give me a few seconds to catch up on the last five hours of upscroll -- have been getting dinner.

johnnytwelvebore [8:03 AM] Ok I'm struggling to keep up with the volume here but a quick bit of feedback: Foz has asked us to concentrate on ideas which encourage switching so that's useful. Conversely if there are any ideas here which are clearly not going to happen let us know and we can back off from those directions.

johnnytwelvebore[8:06 AM]Re instalocking Svips - to be honest if you feel you have to gatecamp (and for the record I think this is pretty lame but each to his own) then there are any number of ways to do it and resebos, rigs and sebos allow you to jack up the scan res of most small ships to the level needed for an almost insta lock so I think balancing T3Ds with this in mind may have unwanted repercussions in other areas, for instance sniper mode is great for snagging sneaky FWers on accel gates.

johnnytwelvebore[8:09 AM]The use of solely speed mode for arty Svips was also mentioned as a case where mode switching was rare, and it is but only as long as you are flying well and not pressured, if you are caught and scrammed then you are going to need to switch or die quickly. This is just a fact that when the fight is going your way it is easier than if you are heavily pressured by superior numbers (or skill), kiting relies on speed and positioning regardless of hull and again I don't think this is too much of a worry.

johnnytwelvebore[8:13 AM]I feel that diverting onto the topics of AFs, while a valid point in itself is beyond the scope of this group. No-one wants to see them become more relevant again than me but they will get some love in time and we just have to wait for that.

johnnytwelvebore[8:15 AM]Lastly, my back is bloody killing me and I'm off biking:) Brb later.

scipioartelius [8:15 AM] o7

gorski_car [9:37 AM] @suitonia lol the evm hookbill is legit

johndrees [10:33 AM] Good morning fellas.

scipioartelius [10:47 AM] hey john

johndrees [10:59 AM] @johnnytwelvebore with regard to the ability of other ships and modules to achieve insta locking, that is absolutely not a "problem". The two points that I was making in my response to Fozzie was that the sensor boosting bonus in sharpshooter mode becomes less valuable (with regard to encouraging mode switching) during an actual engagement, where it is likely that you only need to lock a target once. While simultaneously displacing the role of insta-locking roles from some frigates like the hyena/keres or interceptors. Replacing it with a ECCM bonus may help with both of those things and encourages mode switching based on the engagement.

suitonia [4:48 PM] Instalocking is mostly a problem with Remote Sensor Boosters rather than local ones

suitonia[4:49 PM]I killed plenty of triple sensor booster svipuls in Interceptors

suitonia[4:49 PM]Remote Sensor Boosters are broken though because they essentially bypass this mechanical weakness

suitonia[4:49 PM]and you just fit 5x rsb on some trash fit heron/griffin

suitonia[4:51 PM]a topic for another discussion though perhaps

suitonia[4:51 PM]@johnnytwelvebore: Changing the Svipul speed mode to hecate speed mode would faciltate this

suitonia[4:52 PM]since speed mode is bigger tracking increase vs almost every small ship in the game than sharpshooter

suitonia[4:52 PM]so why ever swap into sharpshooter if you are kiting, even if you get caught

suitonia[4:52 PM]but if mwd off speeds were bad, then you would swap to sharpshooter if caught, or defence

sardcaid [5:16 PM] I don't see the need for a sensor resolution bonus on sharp shooter, period

sardcaid[5:17 PM]I think it'd be an interesting addition to a sharpshooter mode for a bc /bs

sardcaid[5:17 PM]not a destroyer

sardcaid[5:17 PM]and not at +100% scan resolution

sardcaid[5:20 PM]Since we're in high agreement on the hecate propulsion mode, I also question the correctness of the Hecate or any destroyer having 2 second align in propulsion mode

gorski_car [5:21 PM] well you can get instant warps by swapping modes with the others

sardcaid [5:21 PM] We're in agreement that that 'feature' is flawed

selto_black [5:21 PM] i not sure it can be tackled

sardcaid [5:21 PM] how do you mean

selto_black [5:21 PM] due to how the modes interact

selto_black[5:21 PM]as they are nwo

selto_black[5:22 PM]*now

sardcaid [5:22 PM] well it's very simple, you do away with velocity bonus on the two ships and swap to a MWD bonus

sardcaid[5:22 PM]Alternatively you could also deal with this by adding a mode change spool up

selto_black [5:22 PM] derp, brain not functioning

selto_black[5:23 PM]you are correct

sardcaid [5:23 PM] Addressing velocity on mode switch for the confessor / svipul does a lot to better balance the ships to where they are currently interacting with for weapon application, however

sardcaid[5:23 PM]Anyway though, I don't think that a destroyer, even in propulsion mode should have anything near i-stabbed interceptor align times

hoodie-mafia [5:24 PM] Agreed

sardcaid [5:24 PM] At best it should be as good or slightly better as the most agile destroyer of it's race

selto_black [5:24 PM] just a flat mwd bonus across the board is uninteresting imo though

sardcaid [5:24 PM] for example base align for a sabre, no mods would be ~4.4 sec

sardcaid[5:24 PM]well the hecate bonus right now is mwd speed and align

sardcaid[5:25 PM]I think align on prop mode is great! just make the base align on the hecate bad, and the buff with prop mode pretty good

sardcaid[5:25 PM]for example base align 6 sec, in prop mode for sec

sardcaid[5:25 PM]4 sec*

selto_black [5:26 PM] What gameplay is being hindered by the align time on the t3ds?

sardcaid [5:26 PM] the ability to catch t3d

selto_black [5:26 PM] is it just preventing them being caught by gate camps?

sardcaid [5:26 PM] the ability of frigates to out maneuver t3ds

sardcaid[5:26 PM]it is

syenna-celeste [5:26 PM] Partly that.

sardcaid [5:26 PM] preventing them from being caught by other players, yes

syenna-celeste [5:26 PM] And it makes facechecking an FW plex with a T3D virtually risk free.

syenna-celeste[5:26 PM]Not just your generic gatecamp.

sardcaid [5:26 PM] players far away from london will have a very hard time tackling ships with 2 sec align time

sardcaid[5:27 PM]it's 'effectively impossible'

sardcaid[5:27 PM]due to server ticks

sardcaid[5:27 PM]can someone link the google doc for this discussion?

sardcaid[5:31 PM]only google doc I'm seeing is john's summary doc

johndrees [5:45 PM] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Iqzcecpq3VQw2af5imGwfeEHemYLe1sna9F8bBt9Gyo/edit?usp=docslist_api

sardcaid [5:47 PM] okay

johndrees [5:47 PM] @suitonia I don't think that instalocking being in the game is really a problem. I just think that on the t3d it doesn't provide incentive to mode switch.

sardcaid [5:48 PM] well

sardcaid[5:48 PM]it really does

selto_black [5:48 PM] http://puu.sh/kFlg7/78809843dd.jpg (98KB)



not bad for a forlorn hub. i could have warped out, just wanted to see the margin for error

sardcaid [5:48 PM] not for good, interesting reasons

sardcaid[5:48 PM]it provides very fast initial lock, which you then can swap to defense / prop

johndrees [5:49 PM] So, disregard the tracking and optimal bonus, after the engagement has begun, for what reason would you switch back to sharp shooter mode?

sardcaid [5:50 PM] regarding the google doc I think it'd be a good idea to make a form that each member can populate with their goal statements, suggestions, reasoning, and then we can go through as a group discussing

sardcaid[5:51 PM]for your example, EWAR resistance is the greatest reason, though with 10 second cooldown on mode swaps, unless you need the projection bonus, it's likely that mode swap for sensor resolution is unnecessary

johndrees [5:51 PM] Well that's the intention with this doc. Anyone can edit it and when we believe there are enough ideas we can go through and discuss which ones we agree on and which ones we dont.

johndrees[5:52 PM]Until there is maybe some further direction from CCP I think we are mostly in brainstorming mode anyway.

sardcaid [5:52 PM] My issue is that a normal word doc is not easy to navigate

sardcaid[5:52 PM]a spreadsheet with a sheet for each member would be easier to navigate at a glance

johndrees [5:53 PM] Go for it, I'll add to it.

sardcaid [5:53 PM] can you link the e-o thread for this?

sardcaid[5:54 PM]I need a member list

syenna-celeste [5:55 PM] @sardcaid: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6084985#post6084985
EVE allows you to discover, explore and dominate an amazing science fiction universe while you fight, trade, form corporations and alliances with other players.

sardcaid [6:14 PM] holy crap, the more I work with google docs the more I hate it

johndrees [6:14 PM] Haha

sardcaid [6:14 PM] there's a view snap that I can't get around

johndrees [6:14 PM] It can be a little clunky. It is super easy to share though.

sardcaid [6:14 PM] yeah

sardcaid[6:15 PM]for some god awful reason they included sliders for individual cell contents

johndrees [6:15 PM] I think it's possible to import regular excel spreadsheets into Google docs I believe. That might make it easier to create.

sardcaid [6:15 PM] maybe the best we can do is a word doc then

sardcaid[6:16 PM]maybe

sardcaid[6:16 PM]I just want to be able to click on a sheet with someone's name on it and immediately come up with their ideas

sardcaid[6:16 PM]instead of having to scroll through 30+ pages of a word doc and CTRL+F to find someone's work

sardcaid [6:52 PM] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NvWhzPwRJDzJGyaEyJ2vjfMqvjtLUttffxiwo9BDTIk/edit?usp=sharing

sardcaid[6:52 PM]can someone look at that and see what they think?

sardcaid[6:53 PM]please don't like that outside of this chat for now, there's no security

sardcaid[6:53 PM]link*

sardcaid[6:54 PM]formatting is going to be an issue with a spreadsheet, and you need to alt+enter to create returns, but it's a good at a glance way to manage ideas

sardcaid[6:58 PM]Once we give the format a go, I can add security to only participants, and we can use that as a launching point for discussion, start tabulating similar ideas and agreement on issues

sardcaid[6:58 PM]issues / suggestions

johndrees [7:09 PM] Looks pretty legit.

johndrees[7:11 PM]I think for easier catch up I'm going to keep the summary list going but I see what you're after with this and I'll contribute to my page if you are ready for this to be used.

sardcaid [7:11 PM] sounds good.

sardcaid[7:12 PM]I wonder what a good would would be to solicit for gmail logins

sardcaid[7:13 PM]I guess general channel would work

sardcaid[7:13 PM]I'm assuming only this channel is being made public

sardcaid[7:16 PM]john, can you share your email in general?

sardcaid[7:16 PM]I'm going to add security now

sardcaid[7:21 PM]alright

syenna-celeste [7:36 PM] @sardcaid: if you click people's names and choose 'view profile'

syenna-celeste[7:37 PM]you can see the email they signed up with

sardcaid [7:38 PM] I'm not sure that's their gmail account addy

syenna-celeste [7:38 PM] it'll work for me in any case ))

sardcaid [7:39 PM] added

gorski_car [8:03 PM] add meee

gorski_car[8:03 PM]pmed u my gmail

sardcaid [8:13 PM] ahh forgot you can pm

sardcaid[8:13 PM]added

selto_black [8:18 PM] all emails are avalible if you click on the name of the user

selto_black[8:19 PM]ah someone already stated that

sardcaid [8:24 PM] Added

sardcaid[8:25 PM]not all personal emails are gmail accounts


-----
October 11th
-----

sardcaid [1:19 AM] I'll work with John to create a discussion doc from this spread over the coming week as it gets populated

selto_black [1:19 AM] im working on populating my section

selto_black[1:19 AM]Im not that verbose though

selto_black[1:19 AM]i like to be concice

suitonia [1:19 AM] How do you create line breaks in excel?

suitonia[1:19 AM]Shift + Enter doesn't work

sardcaid [1:20 AM] alt+enter

sardcaid[1:20 AM]and so the real spreadsheet in space pilots come out

selto_black [1:20 AM] Hue

sardcaid [1:20 AM] spreadsheet AT champions represent

selto_black [1:20 AM] i lost most of my spreadsheets when i lost all my bpo's

sardcaid [1:21 AM] haha

sardcaid[1:21 AM]as would have I if I didn't have mine backed up on google drive

selto_black [1:21 AM] >.>

selto_black[1:21 AM]always back up your stuff kids

selto_black[1:21 AM]you never know when youll be the one to lose your stuff

sardcaid [1:22 AM] if it helps suitonia you can also type up something in a word editor and paste it into cells

suitonia [1:22 AM] that will probably be easier

sardcaid [1:23 AM] That sheet is to provide an at a glance view of everyone's ideas, I know you've a lot to say and that spread is not meant for more verbose discussions

sardcaid[1:23 AM]feel free to expand your sheet as needed though!

johndrees [1:24 AM] This should work nicely. I plan on nerding out on mine tomorrow while I'm at work.

selto_black [1:25 AM] Hue work seems to be where most gets said in this chat anyway >.> or is that just me?

syenna-celeste [1:25 AM] Not just you. :stuck_out_tongue:

scipioartelius [1:26 AM] o/ all

syenna-celeste [1:27 AM] Hai

selto_black [1:27 AM] 7o

scipioartelius [1:36 AM] https://ccpfocusgroups.slack.com/archives/tactical-destroyers/p1444526731002358
Selto Blackselto_black
Hue work seems to be where most gets said in this chat anyway >.> or is that just me?
Oct 11th at 1:25 AM

scipioartelius[1:36 AM]Not just you. I think that is pretty true

selto_black [1:37 AM] lol

scipioartelius [1:44 AM] https://ccpfocusgroups.slack.com/archives/tactical-destroyers/p1444497738002248
sardcaid
well it's very simple, you do away with velocity bonus on the two ships and swap to a MWD bonus
Oct 10th at 5:22 PM

scipioartelius[1:44 AM]Just on this bit, I'll put my hand up and say I'm not really in favour of a spoolup timer as opposed to the cooldown.

scipioartelius[1:45 AM]I'm much more in favour of Fozzie's concept of moving attributes into the mode bonuses as a way to encourage people to switch modes regularly and leaving the mode switching alone

scipioartelius[1:46 AM]Every time I switch modes, it's because I need the effects that mode provides. Cooldown is a better option as it allows people to access the bonuses they need immediately. (edited)

scipioartelius[1:47 AM]I don't want to have to wait for those effects to kick in. I guess it increases benefit to pilots with more skill who can predict a few seconds ahead what the situation is going to be and that aspect I don't mind, I just think that switching to a spool up timer takes away from what is unique about the ship, where the mode switching is a really fun part of the current design and unique to the class

sardcaid [1:52 AM] Given the laggy nature of EVE with server ticks, I tend to agree

sardcaid[1:53 AM]Also we're not talking about BC / BS, where you do have time to perform a mode switch, for the most part

sardcaid[1:53 AM]Destroyer PvP tends to be very knife fighty and fast paced

sardcaid[1:53 AM]For T3D I think mode spoolups is a poor way to acknowledge over-powerful modes

sardcaid[1:53 AM]It just so happens to address the unintentional insta warp that conf / svip currently enjoy

scipioartelius [1:56 AM] yes totally. Small ship pvp is fast and outside defence mode, depending on fit, the T3D can be very vulnerable to dying quickly

scipioartelius[1:58 AM]I think most players when they switch, would prefer to have those effects immediately - it seems that is kind of the whole point of switching, to gain access to the bonuses you want/need - so having immediate access to them currently is more fun than a delayed access. I can't imagine anyone complaining that they died because they got the bonus they wanted. But I can imagine people not enjoying switching modes, but dying before the effects kick in, or they lose tackle and their opponent gets away, etc. Just doesn't seem as enjoyable, especially in edge cases

selto_black [1:59 AM] it is much the same in pve, mode switching is reactionary for the most part. As you saw in the video, if i hadn't already been in speed mode i would have switched instantly.

scipioartelius [1:59 AM] Yes

johndrees [3:47 AM] Work is a great place to do this stuff since it's a bit harder to actually play the game while working.

johndrees [12:24 PM] Good morning everyone.

chessur [1:51 PM] O/

johndrees [1:53 PM] Hey, nice video you just put up. How did you enjoy the apoc? I had been considering it with a nano - configuration but it seemed too slow and has pretty poor defense once it's been scrammed.

johndrees[1:54 PM]Looked like you had a good time with it though.

gorski_car [2:16 PM] Them old icons tho chessur had me nostalgic

chessur [3:09 PM] Apoc is really fun imo

chessur[3:09 PM]Navy apoc is better tho. With links / snakes  you can get 3.1k/s on it

chessur[3:09 PM]so its really fast

chessur[3:10 PM]damage application is insane. Proper fit- it can hit you with scorch (+tracking bonus) out to 100ishK for 700 DPS or something like that

chessur[3:10 PM]You are right about scramms though

chessur[3:10 PM]it has no defense in that area

chessur[3:10 PM]so you need to fly with antisupport

chessur[3:10 PM]:simple_smile:

selto_black [3:11 PM] Huh, is there a link for that fit?

chessur [3:11 PM] one sec

chessur[3:16 PM][Apocalypse Navy Issue, Apocalypse Navy Issue fit]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Large Ancillary Armor Repairer
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
500MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
Large Micro Jump Drive
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Large Energy Locus Coordinator II
Large Energy Locus Coordinator II
Large Energy Locus Coordinator I

Mid-grade Snake Alpha
Mid-grade Snake Beta
Mid-grade Snake Gamma
Mid-grade Snake Delta
Mid-grade Snake Epsilon
Mid-grade Snake Omega
Eifyr and Co. 'Rogue' Evasive Maneuvering EM-703
Zor's Custom Navigation Hyper-Link
Zainou 'Deadeye' Sharpshooter ST-905
Inherent Implants 'Lancer' Large Energy Turret LE-1003

chessur[3:16 PM]the last low slot

chessur[3:16 PM]you can change up

chessur[3:16 PM]throw in a 3rd nano, energized adaptive, sig amp

chessur[3:16 PM]your choice

chessur[3:16 PM]that fit though

chessur[3:16 PM]733 DPS out to 100+12

chessur[3:16 PM]Apoc has optimal and tracking bonus

chessur[3:17 PM]so at 100K with high tracking scorch, and the bonus- you apply perfectly to almost everything

selto_black [3:23 PM] Good god...

johndrees [3:27 PM] Sweet, it definitely seems fun. I tend to fly like a broke guy...mostly because I AM a broke guy, so although I have snakes and sometimes I have links, I tend to favor ships able to function without them. I can absolutely see how it would be an awesome time though.

johndrees [3:37 PM] I'd like just to say, MJD's are one of the coolest, most dynamic, and fun additions to the game in recent times. The fact that they require player skill to really make them shine is a testament to the good design they represent. If we can accomplish a change to t3d that adds anything close to that level of enjoyment and fun to the ships we will have succeeded far beyond what most of the community expects.

chessur [3:49 PM] Prepare for chessur sperg post
chessur 
[3:50 PM]  
Added a Plain Text snippet: Chessurs T3D (jackdaw Sperg) 
This is going to be somewhat of a long ramble of just purely my viewpoint, and how I think that Fozzie’s post would play into eve (as I see it)
First let me define the idea of a T3D (or what I think that they should do)
Primary job is light anti-tackle work
Excels at killing other destroyers and frigates with ease
Fast, with top (unheated speeds topping out around 3k/s before links / Snakes / Speed mods)
have minimal eHP. IE. I don’t see these ships having any type of worthwhile buffer. I don’t like the idea of t3D having 20+K eHP. Instead I would favor active tanked bonuses. I like this for two reasons. The first would be: Destroyers are meant to be easily killed by larger ships. instead of using large amounts of eHP to survive, they should instead focus on damage mitigation through speed / transversal- with great active tanking bonuses to quickly repair glancing blows. Secondly I feel that this also brings them into line when they are dealing with larger ships. personally i don’t like the idea of s...
Add Comment

chessur [3:50 PM] Would like some feedback when anyone gets the time

chessur[3:51 PM]I am going to try and explore radical mode switch ideas, instead of working on just tossing numbers around

chessur[3:51 PM]going to see if something can stick :simple_smile:

johndrees [3:52 PM] Cool beans.

selto_black [4:05 PM] Something occured to me while reading your post chessur. Should the T3ds benifit the base stats of the ship its self or the mods you place on said ship? Id prefer that latter.

selto_black[4:06 PM]If you look at the hecate most of its bonuses apply to the mods themselves.

selto_black[4:09 PM]@chessur:  How would you feel about switching the t3ds base resist bonus onto an effectiveness bonus for active and passive resist mods?

chessur [4:23 PM] Personally the more you take away from the base stats of the ship the better

chessur[4:23 PM]i think that adding abilitys to mods offers unique fitting choices

chessur[4:24 PM]and other gameplay options based on fittings- which will have more variations than just going with amazing base stats

chessur[4:24 PM]What are your thoughts of the unique mode switches

chessur[4:24 PM]?

selto_black [4:25 PM] ?...

selto_black[4:25 PM]!

selto_black[4:25 PM]thsi is what i get for not scrolling down

selto_black[4:25 PM]one sec

selto_black[4:29 PM]For PvP the concepts seem sound. However i am unsure how i could reliably PvE with the modes being as you suggest.

chessur [4:29 PM] True

chessur[4:29 PM]But I think that PvE wise

chessur[4:29 PM]jackdaw with out defense mode can still easily run lv 1/2

selto_black [4:30 PM] if given the extra low, i could see the jackdaw being viable for blitzing lvl 4's

chessur [4:31 PM] ?

chessur[4:31 PM]you sure?

selto_black [4:31 PM] Not 100%

chessur [4:31 PM] it has no damage

chessur[4:31 PM]and there are so many BS that you have to go through

chessur[4:31 PM]Oracle is my preferred Lv4 blitzing ship

selto_black [4:31 PM] as ive only read up on blitzing

chessur [4:31 PM] ahh yah

chessur[4:31 PM]no

chessur[4:31 PM]it doesn't do nearly enough DPS

selto_black [4:32 PM] Hmm

chessur [4:32 PM] I have farmed many a Lv4 missoins

chessur[4:32 PM]in high sec, low, and in FW

chessur[4:32 PM]T3D wouldn't really work

chessur[4:32 PM]I just don't think that they are great PvE ships outside lv1/2 misisons

chessur[4:32 PM]Shattered wormholes were purpose build for them I guess

chessur[4:33 PM]However even then, if you don't need webs / point and can still go 3BCS in the low

chessur[4:33 PM]killing them shoudln't be that bad

selto_black [4:33 PM] daws cant do c13's

chessur [4:33 PM] claws?

selto_black [4:33 PM] maybe a passive daw... maybe

chessur [4:33 PM] wtf?

selto_black [4:34 PM] jackdaw -> daw

selto_black[4:34 PM]im lazy

chessur [4:34 PM] ohh lkol

chessur[4:34 PM]it looked like a C L

chessur[4:34 PM]no a d to me

chessur[4:34 PM]so i thought you were talkinga bout the intyu

chessur[4:34 PM]hahah

selto_black [4:34 PM] lol

selto_black[4:35 PM]no but the reason daws cant do c13 is because of the shield reduction due to it being a wolf-rayet (edited)

chessur [4:35 PM] yah

chessur[4:35 PM]Honestly

chessur[4:35 PM]PvE is a real back seat concern for me

selto_black [4:35 PM] lol Obviously

chessur [4:35 PM] These ships are not PvE boats

selto_black [4:36 PM] im not trying to buff pve in t3d's

chessur [4:36 PM] and using them as such is very inefficient

johndrees [4:36 PM] You know, I've been playing since 2008 and I've never actually run a mission so my pve input is...not relevant.

chessur [4:36 PM] I have run many

chessur[4:36 PM]and the only time I have used a small ship

chessur[4:36 PM]was lv 1 /2

chessur[4:36 PM]where i took no damage anyway

selto_black [4:36 PM] there are much better boats to use for pve outside of c13's

chessur [4:36 PM] yes

selto_black [4:36 PM] however,

chessur [4:36 PM] that is what I mean

selto_black [4:36 PM] they do make newbros good money for the investment early on with less training time than an AF.

chessur [4:37 PM] an AF is never something a newbrow should train into

selto_black [4:37 PM] which is why i made the arguement that pve should be atleast considered

chessur [4:37 PM] RLML caracal can do just as well (if not better than jackdaw)

chessur[4:37 PM]at killing misisons

chessur[4:37 PM]and it can go HML mode quickly enough

chessur[4:37 PM]I think that PvE is a consideration when talking about larger ships

chessur[4:38 PM]I just don't really see it inside the T3D imo

chessur[4:38 PM]Because if you follow normal progression

chessur[4:38 PM]getting a cruiser, then BC is a much better route to follow

chessur[4:38 PM]if you really are set on doing missons

selto_black [4:38 PM] lol. I tend to buck normal progression in most games

selto_black[4:38 PM]i make 90% of my income from t3d's both in k and j-space

selto_black[4:39 PM]clone soilders, C2's, garmurs bp hunting...

selto_black[4:39 PM]the list can go on

selto_black[4:39 PM]if you focus on one specific area of pve yes there are better ships

selto_black[4:40 PM]but if you wanna try looking for all pve from system to system just scanning it down and milking it for all it has then t3d is the way to go

selto_black[4:40 PM]its the jack of all trades pve boat imo

johndrees [4:44 PM] What a weirdo lol.

selto_black [4:46 PM] Who me?

johndrees [4:49 PM] Yeah haha, I'm mostly kidding. It's fun to be creative with the way we do things in the game. I was using a shield tanked AutoCannon fit Legion as a black ops hunter for a long time. (edited)

selto_black [5:45 PM] lol

syenna-celeste [6:52 PM] can we keep the non discussion stuff to general

syenna-celeste[6:52 PM]plx


-----
October 12th
-----

selto_black [1:45 AM] currently playtesting Null ratting agains guristas in deklin on tq

selto_black[1:45 AM]inb4 titan

sardcaid [4:52 AM] Hopping off for the night.  I'm hoping that we can start to round up ideas in addition to the meandering discussion that's taken place so far over this next week

johnnytwelvebore [6:36 AM] Yeah I have a lot of stuff to catch up on, shift the bearing chat to general huh?:)

johnnytwelvebore[6:41 AM]He actually has a point about the PVE thing in T3Ds in lowsec though, they can move about easily, scan, run 3/10s, blap those tag rats , etc.

johnnytwelvebore[6:41 AM]In high you'd be better off with something else I'm sure but for roaming round low it would be ideal.

ascentior [8:52 AM] Regarding moving bonuses to modules (the examples were mwd and active tanking) I feel that will severely limit variation, and active tanking only bonuses would make them obsolete for any sort of main-line fleet ship or small gang brawling.

chessur [11:19 AM] Small gang brawling would still be in...

chessur[11:20 AM]You can self rep, or in confessor case RR

gorski_car [11:45 AM] Could do hp bonus instead of resistance

selto_black [1:28 PM] Fozzie: when should we expect the logs to go public?

chessur [2:10 PM] Why do i still feel like we are half assing this?

chessur[2:11 PM]I just want to toss out to you guys (edited)

chessur[2:11 PM]That i still feel really with out direction, and its frustrating for me personally (edited)

chessur[2:11 PM]No ones fault really :)

chessur[2:12 PM]I guess it's difficult to perceive progress inside a think tank

syenna-celeste [2:14 PM] You're not the only one. There's a lot of potential energy here but when it's exploding in all directions that isn't really getting us anywhere.

syenna-celeste[2:14 PM]Unless that was the idea?

syenna-celeste[2:14 PM]idk

chessur [3:35 PM] More structure, more guide posts and specific topics for conversation is needed.

chessur[3:35 PM]Right now, its just everyone yelling in a room

sardcaid [4:03 PM] So given the varied nature of this group, what I think we should do is some combination of coming up with a list of topics, and having all participants note their thoughts for us to discuss

sardcaid[4:04 PM]My idea with that spreadsheet is to grab problem statements, solutions and ideas, debate points disagreed or unique, then create summary document for group / CCP

sardcaid[4:06 PM]I think we can also come up with consensus topics for a day, something like "hecate", "confessor",  "propulsion mode", etc

selto_black [4:07 PM] I'd like to know the limits on what we can recommend for changes. Are we limited to just altering the bonuses or are we free to suggest changes to other things as well.

sardcaid [4:09 PM] I don't think we should limit ourselves to anything, nor do I think CCP is going to outright suggest a limitation

sardcaid[4:10 PM]What I am personally limiting myself to, which you don't have to follow at all, is the normal bounds of ship attributes / characteristics in relation to current T3D function

sardcaid[4:10 PM]I'm comparing T3D to T2 destroyers, T2 bonuses and destroyers in general

sardcaid[4:11 PM]Off the wall stuff like temporary invulnerability mode, radical module alterations etc I'm not considering, as it's beyond the bounds of "easy balance fix"

sardcaid[4:12 PM]That's not to say it's thoughtful, inspirational stuff that Rise will jump on to create the new destroyer sized ishtar

selto_black [4:14 PM] What about the fitting discrepancy between ac's and artys? Do you believe that to be beyond the scope of this discussion?

sardcaid [4:18 PM] So as far as easy to do and directly related to T3D? No.

sardcaid[4:19 PM]Given it feels like a major issue with Svipul, it's not a bad thing to toss time at, but I'd rather iron out all other factors as much as possible, first

sardcaid[4:19 PM]Something that bothers me about that assessment is that we have the Sabre and Thrasher that seem to function just fine between the two weapon systems

sardcaid[4:20 PM]Again, I'm doing a lot of my comparisons with T3D to existing ships of that class

sardcaid[4:22 PM]I'm not sure how much you're really looking for changes wise, given your statements so far

sardcaid[4:22 PM]From what I've seen you're more challenging and tempering the debate to keep PvE in mind, which I think is great!

sardcaid[4:23 PM]It's my view that as long as the ship is a tough combat ship with a large cargo bay and easy fitting for a probe launcher, it's going to have a good place in PvE

sardcaid[4:23 PM]But things like how the ship works in specific sites and WH is beyond my experience

selto_black [4:50 PM] Yeah, I'm mostly going to be reactionary.

johndrees [5:08 PM] I have an idea, shall we all go on a roam in some t3d today? It might be fun, we can discuss things while we roam around, stream the whole thing so it's not a closed door to people interested in what's going on in the focus group. We could even just spend some time on the test server, voice coms in an of itself can often be a more effective way to communicate than text.

sardcaid [5:11 PM] Sounds like fun.  I won't be able to attend, but the more open we're about stuff I think the better

sardcaid[5:12 PM]If that ends up happening, I'd recommend that any action items or conclusions are shared here

sardcaid[5:13 PM]I was tempted to ask we put together a skype group, but I think I can articulate everything here in a way that's easy for posterity to review

sardcaid[5:14 PM]Like chessur said, having discussion topics for perhaps one or another day would be a good way to drive debate without going in circular motions

selto_black [5:16 PM] I'd be down for that.

sardcaid [5:16 PM] Okay.

sardcaid[5:17 PM]To get the ball rolling, why don't we start on defensive modes?  What's good?  What's bad?  Are changes needed?  Please be specific, in that if you think one ship's defensive mode is fine and another's isn't, point that out.

sardcaid[5:17 PM]We can talk about that for the rest of the day and pick up another topic for tomorrow.

sardcaid[5:18 PM]that'll give everyone time to pitch in their thoughts across time zones and work hours

johndrees [5:20 PM] Ok, well I'll start by saying I think that the hecate has a very interesting and balanced defensive mode due to it not stacking with bonuses from link ships.

selto_black [5:20 PM] I'd like to see the confessors sig reduction bonus removed. Combined with links drugs and implants it simply scales too well, the only thing keeping it from being as op as the svipul is the extra mass it has over every other t3d .

johndrees [5:22 PM] Well, that would be ok. I don't know how much kiting you've done in your confessor but in mine I'm almost never in defensive mode unless I'm scrammed so my sig radius is relatively small and less relevant than the fact that I'm no longer moving at prop mod speeds.

johndrees[5:23 PM]You could remove the mode and I wouldn't really notice with the ship lol.

sardcaid [5:23 PM] I think you would, and do

sardcaid[5:23 PM]but only if you're brawling

sardcaid[5:23 PM]john I'm assuming you run beams most often?

johndrees [5:24 PM] Almost always, since the nerf to the initial 10mn fits the ship preforms better as a kiting option than a brawling one.

johndrees[5:26 PM]And when I'm kiting, defense mode is a last ditch escape effort once I've been scrammed at best.

selto_black [5:26 PM] I also run beams during pve. Using defensive mode as an "oh crap" button when my tank is breaking is useful, but imo overpowered. It simply allowes you to survive too long vs large opponents.

sardcaid [5:27 PM] So I'm with Selto - any time the signature of the T3D approaches frigate levels I've personally felt that T3Ds are too tanky

sardcaid[5:27 PM]What I do think is interesting and healthy is an MWD sig bloom bonus, probably just slapped onto the base hull

sardcaid[5:29 PM]for example with that signature bonus, the confessor drops from 60 sig (average dessie sig) to 40 (combat frigate sig)

sardcaid[5:30 PM]on top of having T2 resists, and again 33% bonus

sardcaid[5:30 PM]for both the svipul and the confessor signature is a big factor in their tick like nature when they're brawling with ships of the same class, or larger ships

sardcaid[5:31 PM]as usual this is greatly compounded issue with ganglinks

sardcaid [5:47 PM] So if we do away with the flat sig bonus on the confessor, what do we replace it with?

sardcaid[5:48 PM]while it'd be cool I don't like adding a second resist bonus to hull or shields

sardcaid[5:49 PM]I'm a fan of dropping mode swap resist bonuses to 20% level, and adding a second tank bonus

sardcaid[5:49 PM]for instance with the confessor, 20% to armor plus a rep amount

sardcaid[5:52 PM]Even in fleet use I don't typically see plates used with T3D, usually an ancil rep on armor tankers, resist mods, DCU and damage mods

sardcaid[5:52 PM]I think it's also a fun option to have to push buttons to stay alive, so I'm usually a fan of rep bonuses

johndrees [5:53 PM] Yeah, I like that, I especially like that when applied to the svipul.

sardcaid [5:53 PM] svipul to me is kinda interesting

chessur [5:53 PM] I like rep bonus, or reactive armor hardener bonus

sardcaid [5:53 PM] the defensive bonus is resist across shields and armor, then an MWD sig bonus

sardcaid[5:54 PM]yeah reactive is pretty neat

chessur [5:54 PM] The more you can stay away from sig / raw resistance the better imo

chessur[5:54 PM]I really hate sig bonus on defensive

sardcaid [5:55 PM] sure

sardcaid[5:55 PM]what about MWD sig bonus on base hull?

sardcaid[5:56 PM]I was initially tossing around only having that on propulsion mode, but it seemed nonsensical to punish defensive or sharpshooter modes for running the prop

sardcaid[5:56 PM]for sniping or kiting you're constantly running prop

johndrees [5:59 PM] It would pair well with the shift to an mwd only bonus for these ships as well.

sardcaid [5:59 PM] Yeah

sardcaid[6:00 PM]I feel it's kind of a boring bonus to throw at T3D, but in my eyes the T3D is a highly adaptable T2 dessie, and T2 ships at large enjoy the sig bloom bonus

sardcaid[6:01 PM]It's a fairly well balanced bonus and makes sense for the T3D role

selto_black [6:01 PM] If the base hull got an mwd sig reduction bonus on the hull I'd be fine with it. It would punish the confessor a bit though in pve due to cap issues.

sardcaid [6:01 PM] really?

sardcaid[6:01 PM]how so?

selto_black [6:02 PM] Mostly with respects to sleepers and bloodraiders where you need to be close to neut range to mitagate damage.

johndrees [6:02 PM] Well, to be honest a hull based sig bonus represents a buff to the kiting beam confessor, since it would be applied more often than it is now being only applied when in defensive mode.

selto_black [6:03 PM] A rep cap reduction would balance that out and make dual rep pvp confessor fits viable.

sardcaid [6:11 PM] so I don't quite understand selto, in PvE are you running with oversized prop?

sardcaid[6:11 PM]10mn AB?

sardcaid[6:12 PM]Yes john, for how you fly it a hull based MWD sig bloom bonus would be a buff to the beam confessor's surviveability

chessur [6:13 PM] I like mwd sig blood bonus

chessur[6:14 PM]Bade hull sig reduction makes ab fits too op

sardcaid [6:14 PM] blood bonus, suddenly I'm thinking binding of isaac an the blood laser beam

selto_black [6:14 PM] No 1mn beam confessor.

sardcaid [6:15 PM] I think oversized prop should be an option, but it really doesn't need help to have potential

sardcaid[6:15 PM]so 1mn AB or MWD?

selto_black [6:17 PM] Mwd is 5mn.

sardcaid [6:17 PM] that's right, okay

selto_black [6:18 PM] Check #random for full fit

sardcaid [6:18 PM] so if you're using a 1mn AB fit right now, how is that punishing the capacitor of the confessor for sleepers / blood raiders?

selto_black [6:20 PM] If I had to use an mwd. The reason for me using an ab ATM is that it dosent bloom my sig and still allowes me to go 1k in speed.

sardcaid [6:22 PM] I see

sardcaid[6:23 PM]so with the consensus prop mod proposal you'd be dragooned into using a MWD

selto_black [6:23 PM] Yes.

selto_black[6:24 PM]Which would mean a change from rep rigs to optimal range rigs. And just kite all damage at 40.

sardcaid [6:29 PM] I think there's a number of possible solutions

sardcaid[6:30 PM]I don't doubt you can find several ways to get around this

sardcaid[6:30 PM]I don't mind to be dismissive about it, but I don't see this as a problem

sardcaid[6:31 PM]I  think it was discussed previously of adapting more cap regen or injection mods, I'll add using oversized prop, potentially pulsing your MWD vs keeping it on

sardcaid[6:32 PM]in general PvE is so easy it's very open  to interpretation

sardcaid[6:32 PM]I think the biggest question is with new content with sleepers or burners whether we're eliminating player ingenuity

sardcaid[6:33 PM]wouldn't surprise me if we were, but I'd say that it was possible in the first place is because the ship wasn't well balanced  to start

suitonia [6:38 PM] As a counter-point, although it would have reduced flat line speed, 66% agility resulting in a 1.99 align like hecate would help 1mn ab fits and oversized prop mods especially still mitigate damage

suitonia[6:38 PM]because you could turn at sharper angles

suitonia[6:38 PM]for 10mn ab this is a significant bonus too

sardcaid [6:39 PM] ahhhhhh I really don't agree with 66% agility buff but yeah a big agility buff is gonna help with oversized prop

sardcaid[6:39 PM]you won't be as fast, and to selto's point not near as fast with 1mn AB

suitonia [6:39 PM] Thats what hecate has, and it balances defence mode somewhat

suitonia[6:39 PM]hecate base align is 5.97s

suitonia[6:40 PM]1.99 in speed mode

sardcaid [6:40 PM] right, and I don't  think unlockable before warp is healthy even if in prop mode

suitonia [6:40 PM] you're slow as a bc and have cruiser agility in defence, but in speed mode you are more agile than a dramiel

suitonia[6:40 PM]you can already perform that Sard with mode swapping

sardcaid [6:40 PM] we're talking about removing velocity bonus, so no that would not be possible

suitonia [6:41 PM] I mean going from the confessor current speed mode to the hecate speed mode

sardcaid [6:41 PM] yup

suitonia [6:41 PM] the end result is both confessors can instawarp

sardcaid [6:41 PM] depends on the magnitude of that agility bonus, which is what I'll argue when the topic comes up

sardcaid[6:42 PM]suitonia do you have EFT or pyfa available?

sardcaid[6:43 PM]anyone for that matter?

selto_black [6:45 PM] Not currently.

sardcaid [6:45 PM] ok

suitonia [6:46 PM] yes

sardcaid [6:46 PM] what is the base align time of the hurricane or brutix?

sardcaid[6:46 PM]all V

suitonia [6:47 PM] ALL V No Modules with penalty/bonuses
Brutix 7.51s
Hurricane 8.02s

sardcaid [6:47 PM] ok

sardcaid[6:48 PM]thanks!

sardcaid[6:48 PM]Going back to defensive mode, how do people feel about the defensive mode of the jackdaw, if we move away from giving T3D sig radius bonuses?

sardcaid[6:48 PM]would the sig radius bonus swap out to boost amount?

suitonia [6:48 PM] I don't think the defence mode is as problematic on the jackdaw

syenna-celeste [6:48 PM] depends what happens with its midslots.

suitonia [6:49 PM] because it has a high base sig anyway

suitonia[6:49 PM]especially with buffer

suitonia[6:49 PM]and much lower base speed

suitonia[6:49 PM]the Confessor on the other hand has a smaller sig than a punisher in defence mode

sardcaid [6:49 PM] would you still feel that way if the jackdaw had a MWD sig bloom bonus?

sardcaid[6:49 PM]as well as defensive mode sig bonus?

syenna-celeste [6:50 PM] it would still be slow as sin outside of prop

suitonia [6:50 PM] Does it need both ?

syenna-celeste [6:50 PM] I thought the idea was to replace one with the other anyway?

sardcaid [6:51 PM] I think having a mwd sig bonus on the hull is a good addition, so that's the question

sardcaid[6:51 PM]on the base hull

suitonia [6:51 PM] The hecate doesn't have any sig reduction bonuses

suitonia[6:52 PM]and I feel like it's fine

suitonia[6:52 PM]I mean 66% agility is a huge bonus when you're trying to mitigate DPS, especially close range

namamai [6:52 PM] ?*nod*?

suitonia [6:52 PM] since you have almost perfect turning

namamai [6:53 PM] That said, most of the agility bonus goes away as soon as you're webbed

suitonia [6:53 PM] yeah of course, but I like that balance

suitonia[6:53 PM]Interceptor agility, and combat frig speeds out of scram range. Cruiser Agility/BC speed when scrammed in defencd

sardcaid [6:54 PM] in defensive mode you have the really powerful 33% resist bonuses, which aren't seen anywhere else in the game, especially paired with T2 resists.  The closest you have is bastion mode, which comes with a large penalty.  My thoughts are to reduce that defensive mode resist in line with other resist bonuses (from 33% to 20%), and add in some other forms of damage mitigation.

sardcaid[6:54 PM]in general dessies with frigate sig is bad

sardcaid[6:54 PM]so I'm shying away from that

namamai [6:54 PM] I like that -- it reduces some of the ridiculous active tanks you can achieve while still keeping it viable for fleet

sardcaid [6:55 PM] in general T2 ships have MWD sig bonuses, and the T3D is emulating ships that have that role bonus

sardcaid[6:56 PM]I think it's a safe addition the T3D that accounts for the defensive mode nerf, and allows us to adjust other aspects of the tankiness of the ship while further enabling players to fly with MWDs for fleet work

sardcaid[6:57 PM]further on the agility, 2 and lower agility is only achieved even on interceptors with istabs, nanos and gang bonuses

sardcaid[6:57 PM]you design interceptors for 2 and lower agility, it's not something casually achieved

sardcaid[6:58 PM]and even then it's only a point of contention for me due to server ticks

sardcaid[6:58 PM]I think frigates and the like should be able to disrupt a T3D on decloak / arrival on grid

sardcaid[6:59 PM]without the aid of a bubble

sardcaid[7:00 PM]maybe that means increasing the base signature and reducing the agility bonus on the mode swap

sardcaid[7:00 PM]I don't know

sardcaid[7:00 PM]AFK

suitonia [7:01 PM] signature doesn't matter

suitonia[7:02 PM]Me and Kadesh tested this with a <2.0 align cynabal on SISI

suitonia[7:02 PM]with 5x LSEs in the mids

suitonia[7:02 PM]all shield rigs

suitonia[7:03 PM]it had 400m+ sig but still didn't get locked by a london based client with 8x RSBs on claw, with quafe and 6% scan res implant

chessur [8:52 PM] These defensive stats are just sounding more and more like dictors / afs lol

chessur[8:52 PM]Jackdaw is probably the weakest t3d imo. Very slow, meh dps

chessur[8:53 PM]It just has ok tank for small plexes haha

namamai [9:01 PM] Yeah -- I'm not sure why we're talking about Jackdaw nerfs when there's a Svipul to deal with

sardcaid [9:05 PM] I think if they're sounding more like dictors, that's actually a good thing.  My reason is it means they're sounding more like T2 destroyer power level ships, versus the ships they are now.

sardcaid[9:07 PM]If we're able to give easy fixes for CCP, then move into more difficult to balance fixes / changes, like weapon changes or radical mode changes, then we've done good work

sardcaid[9:07 PM]more options more better

sardcaid [9:16 PM] I don't think they're ever going to be ?*just*? interdictors, as you have the sharpshooter mode which grants far better EWAR and projection than dictor bonuses alone, you have propulsion mode that grants better maneuverability and raw speed than dictor bonuses alone, and you'd have a defensive mode that grants equivalent or as currently specced better tanking than the proposed MJD tanky T2 dessies

sardcaid[9:16 PM]on top of heat bonus, probing bonus

chessur [9:21 PM] You're not wrong sard

chessur[9:21 PM]When i get home, i will five full answers to the questions you posted

sardcaid [9:21 PM] cool

chessur [9:22 PM] I am happy that some direction is made

chessur[9:22 PM]And it seems that most people are on board with your plan

sardcaid [9:22 PM] we've had 75% of participants out for the day

namamai [9:24 PM] (did the MJD dessies get stats published and I somehow missed it?)

sardcaid [9:24 PM] nah

sardcaid[9:25 PM]just basing that statement off CCP proposal to make it tanky

sardcaid[9:25 PM]I'm assuming resist bonus plus good tank layout

namamai [9:25 PM] Also, sard, can you sticky those five questions?

sardcaid [9:26 PM] "To get the ball rolling, why don't we start on defensive modes?  What's good?  What's bad?  Are changes needed?  Please be specific, in that if you think one ship's defensive mode is fine and another's isn't, point that out." this?

namamai [9:26 PM] think so, ya

namamai [9:27 PM]  Pinned a message. See all pinned items in this channel.
sardcaid
"To get the ball rolling, why don't we start on defensive modes?  What's good?  What's bad?  Are changes needed?  Please be specific, in that if you think one ship's defensive mode is fine and another's isn't, point that out." this?
Oct 12th at 9:26 PM

sardcaid [9:27 PM]  Pinned a message. See all pinned items in this channel.
sardcaid
Okay.
Oct 12th at 5:16 PM

sardcaid [9:27 PM] the one I pinned has context

namamai [9:27 PM] ?*nod*?

namamai[9:29 PM]While I'm working on a longer answer, one thing I wanted to throw out for food for thought: The Hecate defensive bonus to rep speed is really interesting given the popularity of SAARs

namamai[9:29 PM]Incredible burst tank, but it drains SAARs very quickly.

namamai[9:30 PM]For that reason, most Hecates use SAR2s instead, which have higher cap drain and higher fitting and lower tank but afford sustained tank.

namamai[9:30 PM]I wonder if a similar bonus on shield would discourage ridiculous MASB tanks for Svipul and Jackdaw.

sardcaid [9:30 PM] well

sardcaid[9:31 PM]problem with that is duration on shield boosters

sardcaid[9:31 PM]cycle time for armor reps is mostly to account for HP on end of cycle

namamai [9:31 PM] (It'd boost the power of cheap deadspace shield boosters though :\)

namamai[9:31 PM]Yeah, that's a good point.

sardcaid [9:31 PM] if you buff cycle time on a small boooster, which is already 2 second it'd be pretty nutty

sardcaid[9:31 PM]small / medium

sardcaid[9:31 PM]pretty sure medium is 2 seconds

namamai [9:32 PM] 3 seconds before skills/hardwires.

sardcaid [9:33 PM] what does hecate bonus knock down SAR cycle time to?

sardcaid[9:33 PM]it's a 33% duration reduction

sardcaid[9:34 PM]it knocks it down from 6 to 4 without skills

namamai [9:34 PM] At level 5, it knocks it from 4.5 to 3.

sardcaid [9:34 PM] okay

sardcaid[9:34 PM]personally I don't think managing a module that cycles about as fast as server tick lag sounds fun

namamai [9:34 PM] The thing is, Hecate is the only def mode everyone seems to like, and it's the only one that's significantly different from the other three T3Ds.

namamai[9:35 PM]Hecate: 33% resist, -33% sar cycle time
Jackdaw, Confessor: 33% resist, -33% sig radius
Svipul: 33% resist, -66% sigbloom on MWD

sardcaid [9:36 PM] Well I think everyone likes defensive mode on all T3D, as it's really good

namamai [9:36 PM] Too good :stuck_out_tongue:

sardcaid [9:36 PM] hecate's the only one with a unique defensive mode bonus

syenna-celeste [9:36 PM] I was contemplating this at work. While I'd ?_like_? a 1.8 second cycle type deadspace MSB w/ highgrades and links... It'd be unmanageable with the 1hz tick.

sardcaid [9:37 PM] yeah

syenna-celeste [9:40 PM] hell

syenna-celeste[9:40 PM]it'd be more like 1.2

syenna-celeste[9:40 PM]already 1.5 heated with links :simple_smile:

sardcaid [9:40 PM] with heat and links?

sardcaid[9:40 PM]yeah

sardcaid[9:41 PM]I mean even on hecate with bonus

sardcaid[9:42 PM]even on MASB without bonus

sardcaid[9:42 PM]it's so, so easy to over rep

ascentior [10:03 PM] Unique is key here. I think there's too many suggestions of 'give them all MWD bonus like hecate' and 'give them active rep bonus like hecate'.
Hecate might seem the most balanced of them all, but the big thing that everyone likes about these is that they are different!

ascentior[10:04 PM]Hecate has MWD bonus, great. What OTHER bonus could we suggest for the other ships that also offers unique choices and won't be OP

sardcaid [10:05 PM] For propulsion mode, it's very difficult to propose something different that doesn't make one mode much more powerful than the others

sardcaid[10:06 PM]You can adjust the base agility, the base velocity, AB effectiveness, MWD effectiveness, propulsion mod penalties.

fintarue [10:07 PM] I see no real issue with the hecate/jackdaw having low align times, or a problem with the insta warp mechanic.  On the svipul and confessor, it's pretty easy to mess it up and force yourself to have a long align time

fintarue[10:08 PM]In null sec, interceptors are still bubble immune, while  the t3d are still forced to burn out of bubbles

fintarue [10:26 PM] I am also for removing the signature bonuses on the ships, but I wouldn't reduce the resists in defense at that point.  Part of the reason those 3 can do so well against cruisers is because of their signature bonus against cruiser sized guns.  Without those signatures they'll get hit more often or harder, and taking the resist bonus down would be a double hit to the tank against bigger ships.  I want big ships to be able to kill them, but I want the t3d to also still put up a fight.

fintarue[10:26 PM]The Hecate for example puts up a good fights against many cruisers even though it gets hit for almost full damage against any cruiser size weapon system

fintarue[10:29 PM]At this point it seems like the biggest question is how to make the t3d still strong against frigs and small frig gangs, but also reasonably killable by cruiser sized weapon systems.

namamai [10:30 PM] Agreed.

fintarue [10:33 PM] I also would like to point out that when the Svipul first released with it's dual resist bonus, it faired very poorly as it was not particularly good at any specific thing when people attempted to dual tank it.  The Hecate has also been running into similar situations where mixed hull buffer and armor tend to underperform and die easier than the ones that focus entirely on either or.  I want that to be considered before suggestions of mix tanking

namamai [10:34 PM] ... people actually tried that?  O_o

namamai[10:34 PM]I mean, yes, most of Eve is bad at fitting, "My raven was equipped with the following," etc.

namamai[10:34 PM]But that boggles the imagination.

fintarue [10:34 PM] Well on some ships it does quite well, dual tanked breachers for example are exceedingly strong but it's because of the way fitting lines up on it

namamai [10:35 PM] Yeah, dual tank Breachers only really work because of the absurd amount of capacitor on it.

fintarue [10:35 PM] Not so much, because ASB take no cap

fintarue[10:35 PM]So it's like running only an SAAR

namamai [10:35 PM] (And because there's not much else to put on it once you've committed to a scram/web/MASB fit.)

fintarue [10:35 PM] Bingo

fintarue[10:35 PM]But ya, Svipul dual tank was exceedingly popular when it first released and I killed them left and right.

fintarue[10:36 PM]And the majority of hecates I kill are hull buffer rigs and SAAR

fintarue[10:36 PM]Which doesn't give a strong active tank even in defense

fintarue[10:36 PM]so it bleeds too fast

namamai [10:37 PM] Yeah, but most of Eve tends to gravitate towards good fits in the first few weeks of a ship being released.  There were tons of idiots flying bad Svipuls initially, sure, but I'm guessing most of Eve is flying more solid fits these days -- i.e. MSE purger cancer fits, dual MASB fits, SAAR dual neut, etc.

namamai[10:37 PM](The first of which is the most irritating, imo.)

fintarue [10:37 PM] Thankfully the purger fit died when they reduced shield recharge in the first past

fintarue[10:37 PM]Those were beyond silly

fintarue[10:38 PM]first pass*

namamai [10:38 PM] Oh, they're still around today.

namamai[10:39 PM]A purger fit can still get 300dps peak regen, enough for it to effectively ignore frigates.  (More if it has OGB.)

fintarue [10:39 PM] I haven't run across any in a long time, more common in null?

namamai [10:39 PM] Yep.

suitonia [11:11 PM] You can still see Purger Fits in Lowsec too

suitonia[11:12 PM]300 DPS passive tank in a small

suitonia[11:12 PM]nothing can break it in realistic 1v1

suitonia[11:12 PM]before it dies to it

suitonia[11:12 PM]I mean even the 26k EHP dual MSE fit

suitonia[11:12 PM]has 90 DPS passive tank

suitonia[11:12 PM]which is really insane for free

suitonia[11:13 PM]It can perma tank 5x light drones basically

suitonia[11:13 PM]for free

suitonia[11:13 PM]Which is why the meta has changed so heavily because of that svipul fit

suitonia[11:13 PM]Cruisers can't rely on 5x light drones to save them from small ships

namamai [11:34 PM] Maybe a second reduction in passive regen?  Although ccp_fozzie's idea of moving some of the damage to sharpshooter might fix that as well.

suitonia [11:34 PM] yeah that could help too

suitonia[11:35 PM]So to start another discussion

suitonia[11:35 PM]If the sharpshooter contained some of the DPS of the hull

suitonia[11:35 PM]How much of it should be on sharpshooter

suitonia[11:35 PM]Would you say the ship role bonus would be too much? (The 50% damage from role bonus)

suitonia[11:37 PM]Right now 
Svipul = 9 Effective Turrets total (4 x1.5 role bonus, x1.5 M.T.Destroyer V)
Confessor = 9 Effective Turrets total (4x 1.5 role bonus, x1.5 A.T.Destroyer V)
Hecate = 10 effective Turrets total (5x 1.5 role bonus, x1.33 G.T.Destroyer V)
Jackdaw = 10 effective Launchers total (5x 1.5 role bonus, x1.33 C.T.Destroyer V)

suitonia[11:38 PM]Without the role bonus it would 
Svipul 6 ETs, Confessor 6 ETs, Hecate 6.666 ETs, Jackdaw 6.666 ELs (edited)

suitonia[11:39 PM]is that acceptable? For reference, thats still higher than every AF in the game, except the JD vs the Hawk with pure kinetic

suitonia[11:41 PM]AFs for reference
Retribution 5 Effective Turrets (4 x1.25) to the Confessors 6 (9 in sharpshooter)
Wolf 6.25 Effective Turrets (4 x1.25, x1.25) to the Svipuls 6 (9 in sharpshooter)
Enyo 6.0 Effective Turrets + 5m3 drone (4 x1.5) to the Hecates 6.6666 (10 in sharpshooter)
Hawk 5.3333333 Universal Launchers, 8.0 Kinetic Locked Launchers (4 x1.333 / x1.5 KINETIC ONLY) to the Jackdaws 6.6666 (10 in Sharpshooter) (edited)

suitonia[11:42 PM]Do you feel that it's fair that they drop down to AF levels of damage, or thereabouts, outside of the Sharpshooter.

suitonia[11:45 PM]btw I fucked up on the Hecate and Jackdaw numbers sorry

suitonia[11:45 PM]I did it the wrong way round

suitonia[11:45 PM]editing

suitonia[11:48 PM]I know AFs aren't a destroyer hull, but I think they are directly the closest comparison to the 'role' that T3Ds current fulfill

suitonia[11:49 PM]As a "mid-point" suggestion, what if Sharpshooter had a 20% DPS increase on it, and the role bonus was dropped down to 25% from 50%

suitonia[11:50 PM]this would be 49% DPS overall instead of 50%

suitonia[11:50 PM]because of how the numbers multiply together

suitonia[11:51 PM]By DPS I mean 'damage'

suitonia[11:51 PM]to clarify

selto_black [11:54 PM] That sounds fair.

selto_black[11:54 PM]That would really have no adverse affects that i can see for pve and would encourage mode switching.

namamai [11:59 PM] suitonia: What's the ET count for the current crop of dictors?


-----
October 13th
-----

suitonia [12:04 AM] Sabre = 8.75 Effective Turrets (7 x1.25 from Interdictors)
Heretic = 9.333 Effective Launchers (7x 1.333 from Interdictors)
Eris = 9.333 Effective Turrets (7x 1.333 from G.Destroyer)
Flycatcher = 10.5 KINETIC LOCKED launchers, 7 Universal Launchers (7x 1.5 KINETIC from C.Destroyer)

suitonia[12:05 AM]almost every single bonus on Interdictors is offensive based, either application or projection, and the shared 50% reduction in MWD bloom on destroyer hull

suitonia[12:05 AM]with exception to the heretic only, which gets 20% armor

suitonia[12:05 AM]resists

suitonia[12:10 AM]The reason why I like at least part of the DPS moved to sharpshooter is that it also makes brawling fleets want to swap to sharpshooter, which (if combined with some mode swapping spool up) could make it easier to kill players with mass logis

suitonia[12:10 AM]If you're in a RR svipul fleet, you literally stay in defensive mode the entire fight

suitonia[12:10 AM]aside from roaming pre-fight

suitonia[12:10 AM]Where as with some DPS moved onto sharpshooter

suitonia[12:10 AM]you may swap to sharpshooter when not primary

suitonia[12:10 AM]which can help with target swapping for enemy

suitonia[12:11 AM]and people who just all sit in defensive have lowered DPS

namamai [12:18 AM] Yeah, that means that it's roughly competitive on DPS with a dictor in sharpshooter mode, and competitive with an AF in any other mode.  Seems reasonable.

chessur [12:30 AM] I was thinking 25% damage increase in sharpshooter at least when i was looking at it

chessur[12:30 AM]Its significant, but not enough to feel forced into the mode at all times

sardcaid [12:31 AM] So T3D currently have a base 50% damage role bonus, swap half of that role bonus to sharp shooter?

sardcaid[12:31 AM]I don't feel that in any mode T3D need more damage output than current max

sardcaid [12:40 AM] Also @suitonia I don't follow the role bonus vs hull bonus difference for stacked bonuses

sardcaid[12:41 AM]never mind I get it

suitonia [12:41 AM] Because sard, 2 bonuses multiplied together, which is how it works in all of eve provides a bigger bonus

suitonia[12:41 AM]1.25 x 1.25 is not 1.5

sardcaid [12:41 AM] I had in my mind that there was still 2 multipliers, not 3

sardcaid[12:42 AM]Yes, then I think your middle of the road suggestion is what I had in my head

sardcaid[12:42 AM]sounds good

suitonia [12:43 AM] For the "middle of road" it would be
Svipul = 7.5 Effective Turrets (<9 in Sharpshooter) 
Confessor = 7.5 Effective Turrets (<9 in Sharpshooter)
Hecate = 8.333 Effective Turrets (<10 in Sharpshooter)
Jackdaw = 8.333 Effective Launchers (<10 in Sharpshooter)

sardcaid [12:43 AM] yup

sardcaid[12:44 AM]for prop mode seems fine to me given the mode's intention, for defensive mode I envision the mode for fleet survival and tackle, so makes sense to me

sardcaid[12:44 AM]it's still very potent damage output wise

suitonia [12:45 AM] 1.25 x 1.2 is 1.5

suitonia[12:45 AM]so total damage stays the same

sardcaid [12:46 AM] yeah

sardcaid[12:46 AM]X * 1.5 *1.5 vs

sardcaid[12:46 AM]X* 1.2*1.25*1.5

suitonia [12:46 AM] 20% sounds look a good number too, big enough to make a difference

sardcaid [12:47 AM] haha glad you caught that

sardcaid[12:47 AM]players like rounded numbers

suitonia [12:47 AM] 33% resists vs 20% DPS is quite close to a Damage mod vs an Invul

suitonia[12:47 AM]for reference

suitonia[12:47 AM]not quite a damage mod, and bit better than Cold invul

suitonia[12:48 AM]but still a close comparison

namamai [12:50 AM] Eh, 33% resists are probably okay if they lose the sig radius bonuses.

fintarue [1:13 AM] As it stands only the confessor and jackdaw get sig reduction

fintarue[1:14 AM]Svipul is MWD sig while in defense

fintarue[1:14 AM]which matters pretty much never

fintarue[1:14 AM]Since almost anyone running the MWD will just be in speed or likely sharp anyways

fintarue[1:15 AM]I like the idea of putting part of the damage bonus on sharpshooter.  Really makes people consider those modes at all times, and not just with specific fits kite vs brawl

fintarue[1:16 AM]I don't like the spool up on modes though, leave them the same.  But dropping the scan res on sharp for a larger Sensor strength increase would also fit with making sharpshooter an assault mode instead of just sniping.

fintarue[1:17 AM]And for gate campers, you already see practically insta lock thrashers even before remote sebos.  Their scan res would be about the same as a t1 dessy/dictor which I think is perfectly reasonable to expeect

selto_black [1:29 AM] What about a rof bonus on the svipul instead of straight damage?

sardcaid [1:32 AM] is there a reason to change away from damage?

fintarue [1:38 AM] Well svipul damage is already strong, and RoF translates to more dps than straight damage bonus

selto_black [1:48 AM] Hrm...

sardcaid [1:49 AM] it doesn't have to translate to more dps

sardcaid[1:49 AM]question is if you want more alpha or less alpha

sardcaid[1:49 AM]I think that the damage from the ship being chunky is fine, and fun

gorski_car [2:38 AM] In practice its more dps

fintarue [2:40 AM] In numbers, a same damage bonus compared to a same amount rof bonus is more dps

sardcaid [3:34 AM] So I'm thinking let's continue the sharpshooter discussion into tomorrow, then pick up on prop mode tomorrow night?

sardcaid[3:36 AM]So on sharpshooter mode:  What's good?  What's bad?  Are changes needed?  Please be specific, in that if you think one ship's sharpshooter  mode is fine and another's isn't, point that out.  Also: pitch in thoughts about adding or swapping around damage bonuses to the sharpshooter mode (edited)

sardcaid [3:36 AM]  Pinned a message. See all pinned items in this channel.
sardcaid
So I'm thinking let's continue the sharpshooter discussion into tomorrow, then pick up on prop mode tomorrow night?
Oct 13th at 3:34 AM

sardcaid [3:37 AM]  Pinned a message. See all pinned items in this channel.
suitonia
So to start another discussion
Oct 12th at 11:35 PM

suitonia [4:19 AM] So good about sharpshooter: I like the Sensor Strength bonus on it, feels good, feels rewarding to swap to it to kill Griffins

suitonia[4:19 AM]I mean, nothing is better than an ECM ship dying

suitonia[4:19 AM]But the bonus feels good

suitonia[4:20 AM]it's powerful, but not in a gamebreaking sense

gorski_car [4:23 AM] Make it stronger thoo

fintarue [4:27 AM] Agreed.  I see no real reason to keep the scan res bonus.  If they wanna gate camp or insta lock, make em use sebos just like a thrasher.  Swap the scan res for more sensor strength.

fintarue[4:30 AM]I also think a reduction in lock range may be in order, which would mean sniper fits need to use sebos also

johndrees [9:37 AM] I'm I'm full support of sensor strength instead of scan resolution.

syenna-celeste [1:08 PM] I agree to an extent. A lesser scan res bonus w/ more sensor strength to accomodate it.

syenna-celeste[1:09 PM]Relative to T1 scanres it could very easily be set to slightly below T1 base, and slightly above T1 in sharpshooter.

chessur [3:38 PM] For sharp shooter

chessur[3:38 PM]I like the targeting range, and scan resolution bonus dropped into just ECCM. As we have discussed earlier

chessur[3:39 PM]I also think that sharpshooter mode is where the full damage of the ship should be located. I suggest that outside of sharpshooter mode

chessur[3:39 PM]you have a net 25% drop in DPS, and while in DPS you are ofc at 100%.

chessur[3:41 PM]Lastly, I don't think that sharp shooter mode should help with gun optimal range, or tracking. I also think that Some T3D should not be given a range or tracking mode inside of sharp shooter. Instead, I think that it should just roll over into the hull.

chessur[3:42 PM]For example:

chessur[3:43 PM]Jackdaw should recieve a 15% bonus to rocket velocity. That would put its unmodified jav rockets are around 20K

chessur[3:43 PM]current jackdaw outside of sniper mode has LML's out to 47K Before implants / rigs / other missile mods

chessur[3:43 PM]I think that this is more than enough, so I would be in great favor of dropping any missile velocity bonus the jackdaw receives

chessur[3:46 PM]I personally think that LML's and RLMLs are cancer, so the more we can reduce base shooting range the better

chessur[3:48 PM]When it comes to the svipoul

chessur[3:48 PM]I think that reducing its raw powergrid to 55pwg (with lv 5 skills) can help immensely

gorski_car [3:49 PM] will cause problems due to how shitty the arty fittings are compared to acs

chessur [3:49 PM] That way, players would not be able to fit a full rack of arty, mwd, with no fitting mods- and power to space lol. I think that If you do want that type of projection and power, fitting mods should have to be thrown in at some point

chessur[3:49 PM]you can still fit an AC svipul just fine even with 55pwg?

chessur[3:49 PM]and I was just looking at the number now

gorski_car [3:49 PM] yes but not a arty one

gorski_car[3:49 PM]and tbh ac svipuls are whats op not arty

chessur [3:49 PM] full rack of 280s plus compact mwd

chessur[3:49 PM]requires 60grid

chessur[3:49 PM]lv 5 skills

chessur[3:50 PM]you can use a single aux power core to fit that problem

chessur[3:50 PM]I am just suggesting 55grid?

chessur[3:50 PM]Perhaps that idea needs more consideration though- you are right :simple_smile:

chessur[3:51 PM]As for the svipuls sharp shooter mode

chessur[3:51 PM]I think that instead of tracking, it is given a 60% falloff bonus instead. Inside sharp shooter it has 100% of its base DPS, and outside -25% (edited)

chessur[3:51 PM]I think that a falloff bonus is more useful to ACs

chessur[3:54 PM]and will help take out some of the more oppressive power svipuls currently have over all frigates. Piloting with sniper arty fits will be more important, and there will be room to play around with AC fits now.

chessur[3:55 PM]with 60% falloff the svipul will enjoy close to 20K falloff with barrage (before modifiers) at this point I think that there would be some consideration for an AC vs Arty fit

chessur[3:55 PM]With the clear advantages this would give the svipul in close range combat, I would also be a fan of removing one of its high slots

chessur[3:55 PM]but more discussion on that end would be needed

chessur [4:02 PM] As for the confessor:
Again, sniper mode- I don't like T3Ds getting the ability to project past 40/50ish max K with out having fits specifically designed to be a sniper. Confessor with 3X locus, beams, and aurora is just over 75K range. It also has the tareting to match that- and at times I almost feel that it still is hitting to hard at that point. 332 heated DPS with my fit.

chessur[4:02 PM]I think that the best way to combat this, is dealing with targeting range

chessur[4:03 PM]I don't think that combat ready confessors (AAR, DCU, web / point_) should also have the ability to do that type of dps out to 70K just by swtiching modes

chessur[4:03 PM]the fix here would be to remove targeting range bonus, and instead just throw it into ECCM.

chessur[4:04 PM]With out the targeting range bonus, it has a 56K lock range. Which is around the same targeting range as a slicer / retribution.

chessur[4:06 PM]As with the other modes, I also think that outside of sniper mode the confessor would have -25% dps

chessur[4:09 PM]Lastly for the hecate

chessur[4:10 PM]It has similar issues to the confessor, where it too in normal sniper mode can lock, and hit you out to 125km

chessur[4:12 PM]Here again i would like to take away the targeting bonus of the hecate, and simply have base range around 50k to place it more in line.  I think that for the hecate an optimal bonus is a good addition to both rail and blaster fits. So i would ideally like to keep this. Again, make ECCM bonus the priority and give DPS -25% while not in sniper mode. I feel that would be the best option here

chessur[4:12 PM]Sorry for the wall of text, please let me know how you received / thought about those ideas?

gorski_car [4:28 PM] I'm going to go shop cat food

selto_black [4:53 PM] What's max sniping range on a talwar or corax?

forsot [5:32 PM] "current jackdaw outside of sniper mode has LML's out to 47K Before implants / rigs / other missile mods" I would disagree with this as it removes one of the few ships that have a decent tank and application to deal with small gangs that kite at extreme ranges

forsot[5:32 PM]its light missles that are the issue not the ship buffs

forsot [5:39 PM] also nerfing pg on sviple or confessor would limit effective WR fits as they are vary pg dependant as you need to fit a 400 plate or you might as well bring no tank desis cause it will be an even quicker blap fest then it was before

fintarue [5:51 PM] Lml Hitting that far naturally is similar to what the flycatcher do.  I use the flycatcher as the baseline for the jackdaw.  It beats it in tank, which it should, but has less dps, and far less speed and missile range when not in sharp mode.  An lml jackdaw with no rigs/mods/implants hits 42km with faction missiles

fintarue[5:53 PM]And as was mentioned earlier, Arty Svipuls aren't as much of an issue aside from the fact they just run speed mode 90% of the time.  This is the issue between arty and AC fitting

fintarue[5:54 PM]I've really warmed up to the idea of putting damage on the sharp mode.  Possibly changing the name to assault instead of sharpshooter.

forsot [5:56 PM] ya that sounded like a decent idea as it would encourage mode switching between getting shot and applying more damage

chessur [6:02 PM] so people are ok with 72k Jackdaw LML missiles as well?

chessur[6:02 PM]and no one sees issue with arty svipul?

forsot [6:05 PM] you can do it with kestrels and talwars why not a jackdaw with a little tank?

fintarue [6:05 PM] Arty svipul hits out to 50 at most

fintarue[6:05 PM]And the damage is poor at that range

forsot [6:05 PM] so is the tracking

fintarue [6:07 PM] 70km jackdaw isn't as much of an issue because of how god awful slow it is.  That of course could change a bit if it went 6/5/3 But my problem isn't 70km on lml since the flycatcher hits out almost there on it's own and it's not instant damage application

fintarue[6:07 PM]My problem is the easily done sniper jackdaws that hit 120+ without even needing sensor boosters.

syenna-celeste [6:07 PM] Artillery svipuls fit properly are ridiculously strong.

fintarue [6:08 PM] For the confessor, to hit out to 70km you hafta do atleast 3 range rigs, and tracking enhancers, and it leaves little room for any decent tank.  Is 70km too far for that kind of dps and instant application? Absolutely.  I'd prefer to see it closer to 50, which is around where the arty svipul hits to

syenna-celeste [6:09 PM] In their current state at least. Forcing them to use fitting mods would be a decent band aid solution short of actually solving the core design issues Artillery/projectiles in general have at all levels.

syenna-celeste[6:10 PM]For the Jackdaw: With its current stats the range is okay for an individual ship. It scales very well into gangs but I don't know if that's a bad thing.

fintarue [6:11 PM] The double MSE fit that most of agree is completely insane currently needs to fit 1 MAPC to work

fintarue[6:11 PM]Has a cool 16k omni tank, but that's basically going off lowest resists

fintarue[6:11 PM]Oh excuse

fintarue[6:11 PM]23k omni while in defense mode

fintarue[6:12 PM]16k in sharp/speed

fintarue[6:12 PM]If the powergrid dropped enough to force the use of a current router, it still has 20k EHP
syenna-celeste 
[6:12 PM]  
Added a Plain Text snippet: How do you feel about this then? 
[Svipul, MiG Svipul]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Vigor Compact Micro Auxiliary Power Core
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
Caldari Navy Medium Shield Extender
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Warp Disruptor II
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Click to expand inline 30 lines

fintarue [6:12 PM] I'm not sure just dropping it's PG more will do anything besides nerf arty fits even more

forsot [6:12 PM] is that a pg issue or it havein to much cpu ?

syenna-celeste [6:14 PM] Not sure if that's Brainstraw's fit or not. Chessur will be able to confirm.

syenna-celeste[6:14 PM]toomanysavedfit problems.

syenna-celeste[6:16 PM]But yes. Svipuls have too much PG, CPU, base speed, base resist - Fuck, you name it, it could probably do with less of it. Not much, but a bit across the board would knock it straight into line.

fintarue [6:17 PM] lol

gorski_car [6:22 PM] rf gyro kek

syenna-celeste [6:22 PM] nopoors

syenna-celeste[6:22 PM]))

gorski_car [6:22 PM] would rather do rf point

syenna-celeste [6:24 PM] ~100mil difference, not ?_quite that_? nopoors.

syenna-celeste[6:24 PM]But the effect would be better overall yes.

chessur [6:33 PM] that is pretty much the mig svipul

chessur[6:33 PM]it is strong as fuck

chessur[6:34 PM]the 3X locus rig confessor is pretty standard fitting fyi

chessur[6:34 PM]its how amarr ships are fit for the most part

chessur[6:34 PM]I don't like ships that have 70K range, 300DPS with small turrets

chessur[6:34 PM]and then can also have all of these other bonkers modes on top of it

chessur[6:34 PM]nerf targeting range is probably the easiest way to go about it

chessur[6:34 PM]slicer for example, has 70K optimal as well

chessur[6:35 PM]but only a 50K lock range, which places it well within balance imo

fintarue [6:35 PM] I agree.  I think many of the sniper fits should have to use a sebo

chessur [6:37 PM] yah

chessur[6:37 PM]i have no problem with sniper destroyers

hoodie-mafia [6:37 PM] Worm is another good example

hoodie-mafia[6:37 PM]30km lock?

chessur [6:37 PM] provided they are purpose built for the role

chessur[6:37 PM]I think that lock range is an elegant solution to the range issues

chessur[6:37 PM]Also about the arty svipul

hoodie-mafia [6:37 PM] Its not, but it does seem to help

chessur [6:37 PM] currently the strongest T3D by far

chessur[6:38 PM]would changing tracking to 35% falloff work instead?

chessur[6:38 PM]still helps with arty (tones them down a bit) but also makes AC's much more viable

chessur[6:38 PM]20ish K falloff with barrage

chessur[6:38 PM]and small guns is nothing to joke about

hoodie-mafia [6:38 PM] I like that actually, gives them a bit of range compared to the fessor

chessur [6:39 PM] hell even 50% falloff

chessur[6:39 PM]so you have something like 25K falloff before mods

chessur[6:39 PM]and barrage

chessur[6:39 PM]confessor in sniper mode, with beam lasers

chessur[6:39 PM]is doing stupid DPS at that range

chessur[6:39 PM]stupid*

hoodie-mafia [6:39 PM] Im well aware:)

syenna-celeste [6:39 PM] Yes if in conjunction with changes to make it a weaker brawler.

chessur [6:40 PM] well to make it a weaker brawler

chessur[6:40 PM]you can reduce fitting

chessur[6:40 PM]and then take away flat resist

chessur[6:40 PM]which we were talking about earlier

chessur[6:40 PM]as not being very fun / a good choice

chessur[6:40 PM]that and with the loss of their sig reduction in def (which we all agreed was too much)

chessur[6:40 PM]that could perhaps bring them in line

syenna-celeste [6:42 PM] You said 55 base PG earlier, right?

chessur [6:43 PM] yes

syenna-celeste [6:43 PM] Would hurt artillery fits (as intended) but I don't see it really neutering autos, unless maybe bonuses are split up a bit more forcing choices (as has been mentioned at other points and that I fully agree with)

chessur [6:43 PM] full rack of 280's with compact mwd lv 5 skills is 60pwg

selto_black [6:47 PM] That will regulate arty svips to older players due to skill disparities imo. Is that what you want to do considering ac svips are the main concern?

syenna-celeste [6:48 PM] Might be a necessary evil.

syenna-celeste[6:48 PM]Given the state of artillery.

selto_black [6:49 PM] So a recommended change if they don't fix the fitting gaps on proji?

syenna-celeste [6:49 PM] We're not here to discuss that and CCP hasn't said anything about plans in that area so we've got to work around iit.

syenna-celeste[6:50 PM]So, yes.

chessur [6:51 PM] Right now

chessur[6:51 PM]arty svipul is the best T3D in the game

chessur[6:51 PM]it can easily kill all others

selto_black [6:51 PM] Hmm. I wouldn't mind @ccp_fozzie chiming in right about now. If that recommendation is off the table then I'm fine with regulating it to older players.

chessur [6:51 PM] no other firgate / destroyer has a chance

chessur[6:51 PM]brainstraw and wildthings

chessur[6:51 PM]have used that device to cause great destruction

fintarue [6:53 PM] That also depends heavily upon what/who they're killing.   As I mentioned before, the current AC 2xMSE Svipul has 23k EHP and full dps in defense more

fintarue[6:53 PM]If they're forced to fit a current router on top, it only drops them around 3k EHP

fintarue[6:54 PM]I don't think this is a bad thing, but I think one of the real balancing factors here will be having part of the damage bonus being in Sharp/Assault mode. That forces those same svipuls to choose to way extra tank or full damage

chessur [6:54 PM] Yes i agree with that

chessur[6:54 PM]and that was the concensu from the group

chessur[6:55 PM]I also think that taking out flat resistance bonus of 33%

chessur[6:55 PM]is going to go a long way in assisting that problem

fintarue [6:55 PM] I think that'll get to the point of hitting them to the point of no appeal.

chessur [6:55 PM] lol my confessor does 300 heated DPS out to 80K

chessur[6:56 PM]with 3% implant and basic frentix

chessur[6:56 PM]hahahah

fintarue [6:56 PM] Ya, but that confessor fit is basically 0 tank and not particularly fast

fintarue[6:56 PM]Anything that can hit that far out in return is likely to blap you also

chessur [6:56 PM] dcu, aar

chessur[6:56 PM]and it has a nano

chessur[6:56 PM]2.6 unheated

chessur[6:56 PM]with no plants

fintarue [6:56 PM] TC in the mid?

chessur [6:57 PM] no

chessur[6:57 PM]just locus

chessur[6:57 PM]web in mid

fintarue [6:57 PM] Frentix is nice buff.  I always shy away from it cause of it's penalties

chessur [6:57 PM] synth

chessur[6:57 PM]with st-903

chessur[6:57 PM]to give 80K range

namamai [7:00 PM] I'm not sure I agree with using lock range as a balancing tool.  Didn't work well for the garmur/orthrus.

namamai[7:00 PM]Sebos are relatively cheap fitting-wise, as are ionic field rigs.

fintarue [7:01 PM] t3d also don't have 60km points.

namamai [7:01 PM] If the range is too good on the confessor, then reduce its optimal bonus -- don't give it a huge optimal that it can't use without sebos

namamai[7:01 PM]Remember when inties could point out farther than they could lock and everyone thought that was dumb?

syenna-celeste [7:01 PM] The garmur is largely okay, and the Orthrus has 10? omni turrets with perfect tracking, and a point bonus.

syenna-celeste[7:01 PM]Which is broken.

syenna-celeste[7:01 PM]But not a t3d problem.

selto_black [7:02 PM] Removing the optimal bonus is a no go IMHO.

selto_black[7:02 PM]At least on the fessor.

fintarue [7:02 PM] Namamai I think part of the issue isn't so much using the lock range as balance, but just that in sharp you're often looking at a 130km lock range

fintarue[7:03 PM]The confessor losing it's optimal would be rough

namamai [7:03 PM] My point is that nerfing lockrange hurts all uses of the ship uniformly, whereas nerfing optimal range mainly hurts snipers.  For the former, it means using a sebo; for the latter, it means using a TC

chessur [7:03 PM] can't remove optimal

chessur[7:03 PM]and namami

chessur[7:03 PM]if you do put seebos on the t3d

chessur[7:03 PM]that is fine

chessur[7:03 PM]you have 3 mids

chessur[7:03 PM]on the confessor

chessur[7:03 PM]also, you can't point out to 80K

chessur[7:04 PM]nerfing lock range does not hurt all uses of the ship

chessur[7:04 PM]just in the ability for a normally fit ship

chessur[7:04 PM]to suddenly turn into a corm sniper

chessur[7:04 PM]a 50K lock range

chessur[7:04 PM]allows you to still kite and kill frigates / other destroyers

chessur[7:04 PM]and it allows you to brawl

chessur[7:05 PM]in what other situation would 50K not be enough?

chessur[7:05 PM]If you want to build a purpose sniper hull- then go ahead, throw seebos on it. Like all other small sniper ships (harpy / corm) ext.

chessur[7:05 PM]or am I missing something?

namamai [7:07 PM] It's a reasonable argument.  Although I can't help but feel that it's removing some of the flexibility of the hull.

chessur [7:08 PM] certainly, what we are doing here is removing this flexibility?

chessur[7:08 PM]T3Ds are so good, because all of their flexible options

chessur[7:08 PM]out perform other hulls

chessur[7:09 PM]whos sole purpose is that option

fintarue [7:09 PM] I don't want to remove the flexibility.  I want to push that flexibility by toning them down a bit so people have to use that flexibility more.  The problem right now is that they do things so well you don't really need to be flexible

chessur [7:10 PM] Agreed

suitonia [7:10 PM] I'm happy with the range bonuses on the Sharpshooter hull, I also think that lock range bonus on sharpshooter is fine.

chessur [7:11 PM] please explain

suitonia [7:11 PM] Scan res bonus being lowered or removed I would be happy with

fintarue [7:11 PM] Explaining that he's happy with them?

chessur [7:11 PM] yes suitonia

chessur[7:11 PM]how is 300 heated DPS out of confessor out to 80K ok?

chessur[7:11 PM]why is jackdaw LML missile range in the hundreds of kilometers

chessur[7:11 PM]with regular fitting

suitonia [7:12 PM] In Sharpshooter mode with the other changes I am ok with it.

chessur [7:12 PM] Its opressive

chessur[7:12 PM]A single confessor makes an 80K death sphere for frigates

suitonia [7:12 PM] a Beam 80k Confessor has 6.5k EHP in sharpshooter mode

chessur [7:12 PM] it costs less than 75mil

suitonia [7:12 PM] RLML Is the exact same thing

chessur [7:12 PM] Yes, and does eve need more of that?

chessur[7:13 PM]we have many LML / RLML cancer boats

chessur[7:13 PM]why more?

suitonia [7:14 PM] Well for one
RLML Caracal has 30k EHP (or 26k EHP with range rigs to get up to 80km optimal), Confessor has 6.5k EHP in Sharpshooter, also, The Confessor will get absolutely destroyed by any similar hull or AF landing on it at 0km.  It's also vulnerable to being run down by Attack Cruisers, which is not a weakness that the Caracal shares so much. 
Harpys already do that but with more range/less DPS.

chessur [7:15 PM] A confessor is fast enough with heated propulsion to pull away from frigate threat

chessur[7:15 PM]with insane agility

chessur[7:15 PM]and then

chessur[7:15 PM]you switch to standard

suitonia [7:15 PM] sure, but in speed mode, it doesn't have the range.

chessur [7:15 PM] with 350 dps

chessur[7:15 PM]and 2 shot

suitonia [7:15 PM] I don't see a problem with that gameplay chessur

chessur [7:16 PM] hmm

chessur[7:16 PM]ok

suitonia [7:16 PM] with a mode spool up mechanic too

suitonia[7:16 PM]there are opportunities for frigates to outplay the Confessor

suitonia[7:16 PM]especially if the speed mode is replaced with hecate speed mode

suitonia[7:16 PM]and it's a sitting duck if scrammed

chessur [7:17 PM] true

chessur[7:17 PM]however getting a scram on it

chessur[7:17 PM]should be neigh impossible

chessur[7:17 PM]500 DPS with heated multi lol

chessur[7:17 PM]and web

chessur[7:17 PM]lolol

suitonia [7:17 PM] yeah it does a lot of DPS.

suitonia[7:18 PM]I think thats fine though

chessur [7:18 PM] I guess i just run into problems

suitonia [7:18 PM] Esp. if we move DPS into the sharpshooter hull

chessur [7:18 PM] because unlike other destroyer hulls

chessur[7:18 PM]T3Ds completely crush anything destroyer and down

chessur[7:18 PM]whereas Sabres / thrashers / corax

chessur[7:19 PM]can be killed by that shit

suitonia [7:19 PM] With the speed mode removed, if a Frigate gets a scram and orbits a beam confessor

suitonia[7:19 PM]it will not be able to track

suitonia[7:19 PM]I mean hecate speed

suitonia[7:19 PM]so confessor moves at 213m/s instead of 490m/s base

suitonia[7:19 PM]when scrammed

suitonia[7:20 PM]you will have much more angular velocity and able to orbit at a sharper bank

suitonia[7:20 PM]Also I'm pretty sure most brawl fit t1 destroyers can kill sniper fit T3Ds at 0km

suitonia[7:20 PM]if they find the opportunity

fintarue [7:20 PM] I'm strongly opposed to the spool up.  I think it encourages people to sit in one mode instead of swapping to them situationally.

gorski_car [7:22 PM] I like the swapping = mode is powerful and gets weaker the longer you stay in

chessur [7:22 PM] sigh

chessur[7:22 PM]with a web

chessur[7:22 PM]i am not sure suit

chessur[7:22 PM]as for the mode decay

chessur[7:22 PM]I am not a huge fan : /

chessur[7:22 PM]this is harder than i thought it was going to be lol

fintarue [7:23 PM] I've killed plenty of sniper confessors even with webs by getting them scrammed and under their guns.  The svipul is another story

fintarue[7:23 PM]And the hecate is tough too

syenna-celeste [7:23 PM] I like the idea in concept but I don't see it being a fun mechanic.

syenna-celeste[7:23 PM]Mode spool up that is.

syenna-celeste[7:23 PM]Either decay or increase.

gorski_car [7:23 PM] swapping to defensive mode to get a short huge ressitance bonus and rep up would be cool

namamai [7:24 PM] I like it in theory, but I have the same concern I had last time this idea was proposed -- you have to make the decay long enough that it'll have a lasting benefit for more than a few seconds.

suitonia [7:24 PM] It shouldn't be longer than 10 seconds though

suitonia[7:24 PM]otherwise there is no point to mode swapping

namamai [7:24 PM] i.e. if the decay was ten seconds on Hecate def mode, for example, then you're getting a benefit for all of 3 cycles

namamai[7:24 PM]of a rep

selto_black [7:25 PM] I'm sorry but mode decay would regulate t3d's out of the hands of newbros and pve players.

gorski_car [7:25 PM] I dont see any problem with increasing the skillcap beyond defensive mode and forget

hoodie-mafia [7:26 PM] Newbros shouldn't fly tech III ships before they learn the game

chessur [7:26 PM] And The PvE concerns

fintarue [7:26 PM] That should come more from having other reasons to swap to the other modes in mid fight.  Such as damage and sensor streangth on sharp

selto_black [7:26 PM] Simple mechanics are what we should be aiming for imo. Balance through complexity is usually not a good idea.

chessur [7:26 PM] I feel are becoming over emphasized

chessur[7:26 PM]Certainly

chessur[7:26 PM]it not complex

chessur[7:26 PM]to have a decay on skill

suitonia [7:26 PM] Well, CCP made that easy for them, by making the T3Ds the only ship you can use for Small Complexes, and the shortest skill requirements for any T2/Advanced ship in the game

chessur [7:27 PM] Perhaps that was a mistake

chessur[7:27 PM]new players benefit more from going cruiser route

chessur[7:27 PM]imo

selto_black [7:27 PM] So do you feel that t3ds should have a longer skill time?

chessur [7:27 PM] i do

suitonia [7:27 PM] I ran several 4/10s with a mwd fit jackdaw and it was absolutely fine

suitonia[7:27 PM]I don't

suitonia[7:27 PM]btw

suitonia[7:27 PM]Last night

suitonia[7:27 PM]i.e. AB fit concerns

chessur [7:28 PM] yah

chessur[7:28 PM]PvE they are going to be fine no matter what i think

selto_black [7:28 PM] If you have a ship that is easy to reach for new players, it should be balanced at least somewhat for new players.

selto_black[7:28 PM]Untrue chessur.

namamai [7:28 PM] suitonia: Don't forget, T3Ds are being removed from small complexes

suitonia [7:28 PM] Read CCP's statement

namamai [7:28 PM] (If you mean FW nodes)

suitonia [7:28 PM] I know nam

suitonia[7:28 PM]I was meaning, lots of new players have already skilled for them

suitonia[7:29 PM]Because of 0.0 doctrines and small FW complexes and FW fleets

chessur [7:30 PM] because T3Ds are so easy to train inot

chessur[7:30 PM]I don't think that they need to have very basic and simple mechanics as well

chessur[7:30 PM]allow for both player and Sp growth within the hull

chessur[7:30 PM]I don't think that is a bad thing

chessur[7:31 PM]I personally would never recommend a new player train for them over going the cruiser route, but that is my opinion

suitonia [7:31 PM] I don't think it is all that complicated

chessur [7:31 PM] i agree

suitonia [7:31 PM] I mean you can still fire and forget if you want

chessur [7:31 PM] i don't think so as well

suitonia [7:31 PM] If Defensive was 40% resists for 10s, then 20% resists

suitonia[7:31 PM]for example

suitonia[7:31 PM]then you could still sit in defensive as a new player

syenna-celeste [7:32 PM] Or as an old player that knows he needs those 20% resists to survive. That kind of mechanic would be okay. It's just applying something similar to other modes.

suitonia [7:32 PM] for most PVE content, you are in sharpshooter mode exclusively anwyay

suitonia[7:32 PM]I don't think going from 33% resists constantly to 20% resists is that much of a loss

suitonia[7:32 PM]that it breaks PVE

suitonia[7:33 PM]It would be nice having a higher skill cap ship for PVE

selto_black [7:33 PM] It's possible. And you are correct that sharpshooter is the mode of choice.

selto_black[7:34 PM]But.

suitonia [7:34 PM] and more advanced players who can weave in and out of a rotation to get the most out of the ship will have an edge, but thats fine

selto_black [7:34 PM] What decay mechanic would there be on sharpshooter?

suitonia [7:34 PM] You could have 15% damage boost in sharpshooter, doubled for 10s

suitonia[7:34 PM]as an example

suitonia[7:35 PM]so the damage would be only slightly than now overall staying in perma sharpshooter

gorski_car [7:35 PM] Thoughts about increasing the cooldown on mode swapping btW?

fintarue [7:35 PM] I see no real reason to do that, specially when we're considering making the decision behind mode swapping that much weightier already

suitonia [7:35 PM] 10s is fine

selto_black [7:35 PM] That it would discourage mode swapping to an extent.

suitonia [7:36 PM] If you think about a T3D fight

gorski_car [7:36 PM] I dunno I cant seem to kill a t3d in the 10 sec they are in speed mode

suitonia [7:36 PM] it will likely take around 60-90s ruling out OGBS and shit

suitonia[7:36 PM]which allows for 6-9 mode swaps

suitonia[7:36 PM]potentially

suitonia[7:36 PM]which is cool

gorski_car [7:37 PM] I fought a hecate yesterday with my slicer, he chased me in speed mode, swapped defensive in low armor and reped back up full then repeat

gorski_car[7:37 PM]no time to break him

suitonia [7:38 PM] By the 15% damage boost on sharpshooter, I was referring to @sardcaid 's earlier discussion where we talked about removing some damage from the role bonus, and then putting it into sharpshooter mode

fintarue [7:38 PM] Well, that's something that'll aslo be rather unique to the Hecate, most other t3d don't quite have that option

suitonia [7:38 PM] The cap on the Hecate is quite limiting too

suitonia[7:39 PM]He probably had an injector

gorski_car [7:39 PM] svipul also does that

gorski_car[7:39 PM]at least the standard masb fit

suitonia [7:39 PM] Is a kiting frigate going to be able to break a T3D ever though? Should it?

fintarue [7:40 PM] A single frigate against a t3d should be an insanely hard fight to begin with

gorski_car [7:40 PM] I dunno 200 dps is quite a bit

fintarue [7:40 PM] Even a t2 fit hecate can tank 200 dps with little problem

fintarue[7:40 PM]And I think that's appropriate

gorski_car [7:40 PM] tbh it will be less of a problem once they are gone from smalls

fintarue [7:41 PM] Most of the fighting I experience happens outside of the outpost anyways.  It just means there's another outpost that frigate can slide in to and not have a chase.  I don't see it as changing too much

suitonia [7:42 PM] it will help the lowsec FW meta a lot I think

gorski_car [7:42 PM] well I am in FW so I have to be inside the plexes

suitonia [7:42 PM] New players right now need to skill T3D to be competitive at all

suitonia[7:42 PM]you can't use t1 fit thrashers/coraxes anymore

suitonia[7:42 PM]which used to be ok

suitonia[7:43 PM]Removing T3Ds from small allows
Interdictors, AFs, EAFs, T1 Destroyers etc. to be competitive in there once again

gorski_car [7:43 PM] yep

suitonia [7:43 PM] which currently cannot exist and have to warp if any T3D is on d-scan

gorski_car [7:43 PM] armor thrashers are so fun in those plexes

suitonia [7:54 PM] Also the real important questions

suitonia[7:54 PM]T3D skins when?

suitonia[7:54 PM]))

johndrees [7:54 PM] Asking the hard questions.

hoodie-mafia [7:54 PM] Seconded

hoodie-mafia[7:55 PM]Police Hecate

suitonia [7:55 PM] Police Hecate, Khanid Confessor, Thukker Svipul, Sunset Jackdaw :smile:

fintarue [7:56 PM] Khanid confessor, yes please

johndrees [8:54 PM] Hey guys, have they publicly released the logs yet?

fintarue [8:54 PM] I haven't seen em yet

johndrees [8:55 PM] Have I missed any further interactions with us from CCP?

johndrees[8:55 PM]Last thing I saw was the three points to consider from fozzie.

namamai [8:58 PM] Nope, it's been radio silence for the last few days.

namamai[8:58 PM]In the interim, I'd suggest filling out Sard's spreadsheet to make quick references easier. (Which I still need to do myself.)

sardcaid [9:04 PM] Regarding sharpshooter mode, my biggest question is if and why T3D should have greater projection than other destroyer counterparts

sardcaid[9:05 PM]I do think that lock range is a part of the solution, as forcing rig / mid slots to expand on lock range is a good way to address both potential projection or tankiness of the sniper dessie

sardcaid[9:06 PM]I don't agree that ECM should be so harshly penalized as has been suggested so far - I'm quite happy with a destroyer gaining 100% increased sensor strength, but beyond that seems too much

sardcaid[9:07 PM]though I think the base sensor strength of the T3D should be high relative to T1 destroyers anyway

sardcaid[9:07 PM]I'm not sure how those compare

sardcaid[9:07 PM]I agree that scan resolution buff should go entirely away

sardcaid[9:08 PM]I think suitonia hit the nail on the head for moving some of the damage bonus from the hull to sharpshooter mode - take off a quarter from the base hull, add a 1.2x modifier to sharpshooter

sardcaid[9:08 PM]in effect is same as 1.5 and 1.5 modifiers

fintarue [9:08 PM] Base sensor strength is marginally better than t1 dessie

fintarue[9:08 PM]Seems it's the same as dictors

fintarue[9:09 PM]Even in sharpshooter the way it is now, a griffin can almost perma jam it

sardcaid [9:09 PM] I think it's a cool mode bonus to give T3D ECM resistance, but I don' t think it should approach BS or better with some crazy greater than 100% buff on swap

sardcaid[9:09 PM]I argue that's an issue with ECM, not the mode bonus

sardcaid[9:10 PM]and I think that one EWAR ship knocking out one other ship is in line with what is to be expected from an EWAR ship

suitonia [9:10 PM] I think ECM is balanced, just a really poor god awful mechanic

sardcaid [9:11 PM] there are so many quality of life improvements that could be made to ECM that I don't think it's balanced, at least not in small scale PvP end of game

suitonia [9:11 PM] No definately not, it's 100% broken in <5 man fights

sardcaid [9:11 PM] I agree it's currently not a fun mechanic to boot

suitonia [9:11 PM] And it also becomes hard to use effectively beyond >20 man fights

sardcaid [9:12 PM] maybe CCP can make a ECM focus group, to increase the icelandic salt production for 2015

fintarue [9:12 PM] lol

suitonia [9:12 PM] Falcon = end of any <5 man fight

suitonia[9:13 PM]unless you have specialized ships like a Keres

suitonia[9:13 PM]to disable that

sardcaid [9:13 PM] but again, when you start jacking up the attributes of ship up a class or two, or how discussion has been going, even higher, it says there's an issue with the mechnic, and any solution should be focused on the mechanic, not the ship

suitonia [9:14 PM] I don't see a problem with the ECCM Strength on sharpshooter, one of the few reasons to swap to sharpshooter currently anyway

sardcaid [9:14 PM] no problem, rather there's been discussion to increase the benefit

suitonia [9:14 PM] I don't think it needs increasing

sardcaid [9:14 PM] cool

suitonia [9:15 PM] I mean, T3D in sharpshooter mode already requires specialized probers

suitonia[9:15 PM]Svipul in Sharpshooter has like 35 strength / 50 sig

sardcaid [9:15 PM] regarding sharpshooter modes, is there any particular reason that a T3D should receive better than 10% per level bonus to range?

suitonia [9:15 PM] I'm pretty sure it can reach the 'Unprobable' status with links easily

suitonia[9:15 PM]while in sharpshooter

suitonia[9:15 PM]I mean the scan difficulty cap

suitonia[9:15 PM]requiring virtues

suitonia[9:15 PM]thats currently

suitonia[9:16 PM]The only reason is because of the "33% thing they got going on, and the 3s stuff"

suitonia[9:16 PM]3 modes, 33% multiple bonuses

suitonia[9:16 PM]etc.

suitonia[9:16 PM]It seems more like flavor than balance

sardcaid [9:17 PM] I never looked for that

sardcaid[9:17 PM]I guess solution is find OCD devs at CCP and muzzle them?

sardcaid[9:17 PM]Kappa

sardcaid[9:17 PM]But really though, balance wise, I don't think that T3D should project more than T1 / dictors

syenna-celeste [9:18 PM] Yeah but some T1 destroyers do project really well

suitonia [9:18 PM] The main advantage dictors have is application

fintarue [9:18 PM] Dictors have lots of advantages over their t1 counterpoarts

fintarue[9:18 PM]parts*

suitonia [9:19 PM] I.e. Flycatcher has Explosion Radius reduction on missiles, both Eris and Sabre have 50% tracking bonuses

fintarue [9:19 PM] faster, better tank, and damage/application

syenna-celeste [9:19 PM] If the whole idea of 'T3' is flexibility then having the option to match or come close to the high projection platforms for some kind of drawback seems like a good design choice.

sardcaid [9:19 PM] Right

sardcaid[9:21 PM]I don't think T3D should gain application bonuses, players should be forced to use application mods / rigs / piloting to achieve that.  I'm okay with T3D having a strong projection bonus similar to T1 dessies, but not ?*both*? a strong projection and application bonus

sardcaid[9:22 PM]The moment you pair equal application, equal projection with T3D, competition drops out due to adaptability and tankiness of T3D

suitonia [9:23 PM] Only the Hecate/Svipul get application bonuses

suitonia[9:23 PM]I would argue that the Hecate probably needs it to be competitive with blasters/rails

suitonia[9:23 PM]Svipul I'm not so sure

sardcaid [9:23 PM] I think the hecate is fine with application boni, mostly due to fitting constraints

fintarue [9:23 PM] Considering how little it's used as it is

fintarue[9:23 PM]On the svipul

sardcaid [9:24 PM] when you toss damage bonus to sharpshooter mode, it's much more relevant discussion whether tracking bonus should be there

suitonia [9:25 PM] I think it's fine for the tracking bonus to be on the hecate hull

sardcaid [9:25 PM] agree

suitonia [9:26 PM] Do you feel like swapping the 50% optimal on Svipul hull with the 33% tracking on sharpshooter would be a good option?

sardcaid [9:26 PM] ahhh no

sardcaid[9:26 PM]I feel like opt + fall + tracking could be okay

fintarue [9:26 PM] Ok, let me pose this then.  We're talking about possibly having no application bonuses.  Does the hecate really need it? The confessor does fine applying, and rails track better than beams.  Blasters don't particularly need it, and hecatees often have a web since they armor tank

fintarue[9:26 PM]Does it even need the tracking bonus?

sardcaid [9:27 PM] or a single strong falloff would be okay

fintarue [9:27 PM] The svipul hardly uses the tracking bonus currently

sardcaid [9:28 PM] and it feels fine without it

gorski_car [9:28 PM] I dont like the svipuls tracking on sharpshooter

gorski_car[9:28 PM]it doesnt need it with acs and speed mode often gives more tracking

fintarue [9:29 PM] Even if the svipul's prop mode was changed to be like the Hecates, it would still likely be the fastest of the t3d, but would be more vulnerable if caught with arties, as it rightfully should be

sardcaid [9:29 PM] if you change speed mode to MWD bonus, you no longer have velocity to match trans

sardcaid[9:29 PM]you become much more reliant on web for both AC and arty

fintarue [9:30 PM] I don't see an issue with that considering the big complaint of the svipul is the 2xMSE AC fit

fintarue[9:30 PM]Which already runs without a web

sardcaid [9:30 PM] yup

fintarue [9:30 PM] Which would force people to heavily consider, full tank or do I want that web

fintarue[9:31 PM]Which is similar to a shield gank thrasher

fintarue[9:31 PM]This would just give people another option to consider, which I strongly support

sardcaid [9:32 PM] if  you do away with that tracking bonus, even with damage bonus on sharpshooter, you lose much of the reason to swap modes

sardcaid[9:32 PM]I think there should be some amount of range in that mode

fintarue [9:32 PM] No one already swaps modes on the svipul

fintarue[9:32 PM]Tackle, defensive mode

sardcaid [9:33 PM] again CCP wants to put damage in sharpshooter

sardcaid[9:33 PM]that's huge incentive to use sharpshooter

sardcaid[9:33 PM]but what else should be there

fintarue [9:33 PM] I was looking at your previous statement, you made it sound like it would reduce the need to swap modes even futher

fintarue[9:34 PM]You're wanting range and damage to be on Sharp for the Svipul, if I'm understanding

sardcaid [9:34 PM] I think so, yes

fintarue [9:34 PM] I agree to that.  It would also put in perfectly in line with the other t3d that have range already on sharp

sardcaid [9:34 PM] the svipul already has range bonus on hull though, so I'm conflicted

fintarue [9:34 PM] Take it off the hull

sardcaid [9:35 PM] but but butt

fintarue [9:35 PM] It's already useless for AC with optimal

fintarue[9:35 PM]Put it all on Sharp, like the others

fintarue[9:35 PM]Encourage people to sit in Sharp for damage/range or go full tank

sardcaid [9:35 PM] so what does svipul get in place of opt boni on hull

syenna-celeste [9:36 PM] falloff

sardcaid [9:36 PM] chrome fittings?

sardcaid[9:36 PM]spoiler?

syenna-celeste [9:36 PM] oh nvm i just read

syenna-celeste[9:36 PM]..actually, still valid.

sardcaid [9:36 PM] I'm not sure if it is syenna

fintarue [9:37 PM] Well all of the other ships have some sort of damage on the hull

sardcaid [9:37 PM] that'll still be there

sardcaid[9:37 PM]they also have X extra

fintarue [9:37 PM] That's part of what'll move to sharp

fintarue[9:37 PM]Hecate has tracking

fintarue[9:37 PM]Jackdaw has missile switch speed

syenna-celeste [9:37 PM] Reload speed bonus would be stronk.

syenna-celeste[9:37 PM]And interesting.

fintarue [9:37 PM] Confessor....has that lame energy turret cost

sardcaid [9:38 PM] oh shit

sardcaid[9:38 PM]oh shit guys

sardcaid[9:38 PM]artee fitting boni

sardcaid[9:38 PM]boosh

sardcaid[9:38 PM]bam paff zamo

fintarue [9:38 PM] I was tossing that around in my head the other day but wasn't sure

gorski_car [9:38 PM] can they even do that

sardcaid [9:38 PM] sure

fintarue [9:38 PM] It does on the Attack BC

fintarue[9:38 PM]reduced fitting on large gubns

sardcaid [9:39 PM] well attack BC has projectile fitting bonus

fintarue [9:39 PM] Similar principle should work

sardcaid [9:39 PM] I think they can

gorski_car [9:39 PM] yeah they can

gorski_car[9:39 PM]bombers have torps only

sardcaid [9:39 PM] bombers have torp fitting bonus

sardcaid[9:39 PM]yeah

fintarue [9:39 PM] Bingo

sardcaid [9:39 PM] maybe that's missiles only though

sardcaid[9:39 PM]try to do that on turrets and poses start doing funny stuff

fintarue [9:39 PM] Ok, before we get to interested in that. What would be the consequences of that action? What would we see change

fintarue[9:40 PM]The AC stuff would stay around the same, but Arty fits would potentially end up with more tank

sardcaid [9:40 PM] Well it allows you to address fitting on svipul

fintarue [9:40 PM] If we did that, I'd still reduce PG or some sort of fitting on svipul

fintarue[9:40 PM]ya

sardcaid [9:40 PM] artee can't has as much tank, AC can have harder to fit tank, more reason to look at lower tier guns

fintarue [9:41 PM] I think here the question is, do we feel the AC fit should get hit because it can fit too much? Or because it has no reason to swap modes ever

sardcaid [9:41 PM] It's been one of the hotter talking points of this focus group, svipul fitting

fintarue [9:41 PM] The mode changes we've been tossing around would affect the reason to swap modes immensly

sardcaid [9:44 PM] I don't think we can effectively address fitting until we nail down with some firmness what we'd like to see out of modes, including propulsion mode

sardcaid[9:44 PM]We've talked a lot about prop mode earlier and seems we're at consensus, but we should touch up on it one more time

sardcaid[9:45 PM]from there I think we have a good picture of what mode swaps and hull bonuses could look like without radical change

sardcaid[9:45 PM]then we can start picking apart individual ships with their current attributes and fitting to see what's broke / unbalanced

fintarue [9:46 PM] I like that most of the discussion isn't just a simple nerf, but a restructure

sardcaid [9:46 PM] well, it's a light nerf in many places, but the integrity of the ship and it's mission is similar

sardcaid[9:46 PM]I think making prop mode MWD bonuses only is a huge nerf to svip / confessor

sardcaid[9:46 PM]for example

sardcaid[9:46 PM]but warranted

sardcaid[9:49 PM]There's been a lot of really good debate today on sharpshooter mode

sardcaid[9:49 PM]I was surprised to see how much text there's been since I last logged in

sardcaid[9:50 PM]That said  though, does anyone think we shouldn't move on to propulsion mode discussion now?

sardcaid[9:50 PM]I don't think we're done with sharpshooter but we can come back to it later

suitonia [9:53 PM] In respect to propulsion mode, I think a lot has already been said

fintarue [9:53 PM] I think Defensive is the one a lot of people have been troubled with

fintarue[9:54 PM]I think most of us have agreed that the hecate is the most reasonable with how it is

fintarue[9:54 PM]It's very strong, but does not take a lot to shut it down.

fintarue[9:54 PM]Combined with it's other weaknesses

sardcaid [9:56 PM] I have a bone to pick about instant warp that I want to have discussed

sardcaid[9:56 PM]Also I'd like to discuss MWD sig penalty reduction

fintarue [10:00 PM] What do you have in mind

sardcaid [10:00 PM] okay let's formally dive into this then

sardcaid[10:05 PM]So on propulsion mode:  What's good?  What's bad?  Are changes needed?  Please be specific, in that if you think one ship's propulsion  mode is fine and another's isn't, point that out.

sardcaid [10:05 PM]  Pinned a message. See all pinned items in this channel.
sardcaid
So on propulsion mode:  What's good?  What's bad?  Are changes needed?  Please be specific, in that if you think one ship's propulsion  mode is fine and another's isn't, point that out.
Oct 13th at 10:05 PM

sardcaid [10:06 PM] so past discussion up until this point has been that the hecate's prop mode is good, and to emulate that across all 4 T3D

sardcaid[10:07 PM]Svipul / confessor velocity bonus on prop mode raises issues with frigates / destroyers being able to get under tracking of those ships

fintarue [10:07 PM] Well it also lends to why the hecate is well balanced.  The ship is strong, but because of the low base speed it takes damage from medium class weapon systems in a way that makes it so cruisers+ can fight it reasonably

sardcaid [10:07 PM] also that under scram confessor / svipul are too mobile, and can't effectively be held down

sardcaid[10:07 PM]as much as they should relative to other destroyers fit with MWD, anyway

sardcaid[10:08 PM]While I think having slight differences between T3D modes adds to flavor and is fun

sardcaid[10:08 PM]and does warrant an additional look

sardcaid[10:08 PM]I think sloppily throwing around that basic mode to other T3D is good starting point

sardcaid[10:09 PM]starting there, my greatest issue is while in prop mode, the hecate can't be tackled from decloak / arrival on grid

sardcaid[10:09 PM]2 second align time is far too low for a destroyer as a base attribute in propulsion mode

sardcaid[10:10 PM]the closest similar ship to that align time is an i-stabbed travel interceptor, and I don't think that's a healthy comparison

sardcaid[10:10 PM]to a combat fit T3D

fintarue [10:10 PM] I think the agility should be something unique to jackdaw/hecate

fintarue[10:11 PM]But I think limiting the speed bonus to MWD only would be ideal

sardcaid [10:11 PM] A nice thing about making agility universal on propulsion mode is that it helps all T3D if they're using oversized prop

fintarue [10:12 PM] Because of the PG on the hecate and jackdaw, 10mn is practically non-existant though, not just because of the lowered speed

sardcaid [10:12 PM] another way to look at prop mode is that you can invest agility into propulsion mode, and have weaker align as base attribute, and very strong align in mode

sardcaid[10:12 PM]alternatively you have average to good align as base attribute

sardcaid[10:13 PM]right, so when applying prop mode bonuses to confessor / svipul, I think having some amount of good agility, possibly in prop mode is healthy

fintarue [10:14 PM] Ok, how about this suggestion then?  The complaint for those, specially the svipul is that in prop mode it affects base speed.  How about taking that off? Leave it so confessor and svipul still get an increase with AB and MWD, but no bonus to their base speed

sardcaid [10:16 PM] oh man AB speed bonus is so scary though

fintarue [10:16 PM] It already gets it Sard

sardcaid [10:16 PM] and it's broked so I don't want it back :S

sardcaid[10:17 PM]it's so hard to gauge with AB what % extra speed on AB is broken and not

sardcaid[10:17 PM]I'd think less than sansha is good

sardcaid[10:17 PM]25% maybe?

sardcaid[10:18 PM]good news on effectiveness bonus for AB and MWD is that selto was complaining that taking off velocity bonus is frustrating for sleeper / blood raider sites

sardcaid[10:19 PM]another question on my end is why should svipul / confessor have AB bonus?  what about their function says they should be AB bonused?

sardcaid[10:19 PM]that they work well with AB to me is separate  to having an AB bonus

suitonia [10:19 PM] Also, +66% agility is a boost to Sig tanking too

suitonia[10:19 PM]esp with 10mn ab

suitonia[10:19 PM]since you can make sharper turns

suitonia[10:19 PM]and have higher angular velocity

fintarue [10:20 PM] I'd rahter not give the confessor or svipul the hecate agility

sardcaid [10:20 PM] Any ship having hecate agility in prop mode is troublesome

fintarue [10:21 PM] They align reasonably fast already while in prop with the current 33% bonus

fintarue[10:22 PM]Ok, question.  Would the speeds stay the same if the bonus was made to only affect prop mods? Since it'd be affecting a lower base speed

sardcaid [10:23 PM] can you rephrase that question?

sardcaid[10:23 PM]I don't know what you're talking about

fintarue [10:24 PM] Svipul/Confessor Propulsion mode gives a 66.6% bonus to maximum velocity

fintarue[10:24 PM]If you removed that and made the propulsion mode bonus. 66.6% Velocity bonus to MWD and AB speed

fintarue[10:25 PM]How would that change the speeds of the ship with a prop module active?  The base speed while in propulsion mode for the svipul would go from 479 to 288

fintarue[10:26 PM]The bonus for the Hecate is for inertia modifier, which I'm sure goes into the speed calculation for MWD

fintarue[10:27 PM]The confessor/svipul are for agility

fintarue[10:27 PM]I'm not positive if this affects how fast they'd go with a propulsion module

sfm_hobb3s [10:27 PM] Without the agility you can kiss using any t3d in big fleets good bye

fintarue [10:28 PM] I'm not recommending taking off the agility at all

fintarue[10:28 PM]Just changing where the speed bonus is applied

sfm_hobb3s [10:28 PM] no I realize that.

sfm_hobb3s[10:28 PM]I'm just saying.

sfm_hobb3s[10:29 PM]In most  fleet fights I actually rarely use my mwd

sfm_hobb3s[10:29 PM]except the rare occasion I've gotten a little too close and I'm already aligned somewhere to warp if I start seeing yellow

sfm_hobb3s[10:29 PM]and moving to gates through bubbles of course

sfm_hobb3s[10:30 PM]so if I'm moving approx 500m/s and you cut that down by almost half...I'll be taking significantly more damage from any tertiary fire

sfm_hobb3s[10:31 PM]which isn't a bad thing, but probably not a good thing due to the huge tank difference between t3d brawlers and snipers

sfm_hobb3s[10:34 PM]sniper hecate would probably get hit worse. has worse tank  than my confessor does :wink:

fintarue [10:36 PM] Sniper hecate wouldn't change at all

fintarue[10:37 PM]It's bonus already only applies to MWD

suitonia [10:37 PM] @fintarue The Hecate has a lower mass than most Frigates in the game

suitonia[10:37 PM]which provides a bigger bonus to prop on speeds

suitonia[10:37 PM]while allowing the base speed t be lower

suitonia[10:37 PM]its one of the really fine points and whys its really well balanced

fintarue [10:38 PM] Agreed, but if I understand, that means changing the velocity to only apply to mwd and ab speeds on the confessor/svipul wouldn't work the same then

fintarue[10:38 PM]Without having the inertia bonus as well

suitonia [10:38 PM] You nerf the agility on them to hecate while outside speed mode

suitonia[10:39 PM]then give 66% agility

suitonia[10:39 PM]hecate aligns slower than a thorax when not in speed mode

suitonia[10:40 PM]Thorax Align: 5.43s
Hecate Align: 5.96s

suitonia[10:40 PM]which is good because it means outside of speed mode, its really hard to mitigate damage

suitonia[10:40 PM]because you can't orbit well

suitonia[10:40 PM]and with your terrible base speed

suitonia[10:40 PM]every cruiser can just double click in  space

suitonia[10:41 PM]to get perfect tracking

suitonia[10:41 PM]with mutual control

sfm_hobb3s [10:41 PM] very true.  I actually fit a hecate as a fleet sniper in an effort to see if it would fare better than confessor.  Usage wise its about the same.  But you really have to commit to your mode switches.  It was a bit less forgiving than confessor.

suitonia [10:41 PM] Also on the subject of mass removal from confessor since we have discussed it before

suitonia[10:42 PM]I suggested adding a 50% reduction in mass penalty from plates (Should be able to do this because this skill already exists Armor Layering)

suitonia[10:42 PM]to mitigate the penalty from big plates

fintarue [10:43 PM] What would the purpose of that be?

suitonia [10:43 PM] Lower the mass, lower the base speed

suitonia[10:44 PM]same outcome with prop on speeds

sfm_hobb3s [10:44 PM] can't eve fit plates on my sniper fits =/

sfm_hobb3s[10:44 PM]can't even

suitonia [10:44 PM] but the plate reduction  penalty will help with the extra slowdown from plates

fintarue [10:44 PM] Many confessors don't even bother with plates though

suitonia [10:45 PM] No, but its still nice to have.

suitonia[10:45 PM]to stop the tears

suitonia[10:45 PM]on reddit

sardcaid [10:45 PM] I'm not even sure an RR confessor uses larger than a single 200mm plate

suitonia [10:45 PM] also some fleet fits use 200mm plate

sardcaid [10:45 PM] c/d?

suitonia [10:45 PM] yes

suitonia[10:46 PM]Sure, but I remember 2 people in here objected because "my plate fit will be slower"

suitonia[10:46 PM]which is why I suggested that

sardcaid [10:46 PM] I see

suitonia [10:46 PM] and it's a fairly interesting bonus

suitonia[10:46 PM]kinda of like the jackdaw bonus

sardcaid [10:47 PM] here's some fun: would that be base hull or propulsion mode?

suitonia [10:47 PM] base hull IMO

sardcaid [10:48 PM] okay, another fun bit: why give the confessor the only instance of an extra bonus to base hull?

sardcaid[10:48 PM]svipul, confessor and hecate all can run with a plate and stay within design of armor capable

sardcaid[10:49 PM]an alternative is moving cap usage bonus to sniper mode, but I don't think many would stomach that

suitonia [10:49 PM] Is the cap bonus needed as much now?

suitonia[10:49 PM]I mean it used to have 6 guns

suitonia[10:49 PM]then reduced to 4

fintarue [10:49 PM] Cap is pretty rough

suitonia [10:49 PM] so the cap requirement is lower now

suitonia[10:50 PM]You could make the plate bonus 10% per level

suitonia[10:50 PM]then just give 50% cap reduction role bonus

suitonia[10:51 PM]I also don't think the Confessor necessarily needs a plate role bonus either, just FYI, but CCP has been pushing a lot of Amarr hulls towards high base speed, high mass, so they don't lose as much speed from plates, by lowering mass and lowering base speed we are kind of moving away from that design

sardcaid [10:52 PM] I have no qualms with dropping the discussion and letting those with stronger opinions on the matter bring it back up

sardcaid[10:57 PM]Alright, so with all that said, how do people feel about adding a MWD sig penalty reduction either to the base hull, or propulsion mode?

sardcaid[10:57 PM]This would coincide with general reduction of resistance on defensive mode, and increase of base signature

sardcaid[10:58 PM]to ~destroyer+ levels (plus being slightly better)

fintarue [10:59 PM] Honestly, that's something I'd like to see possibly stick with AF and HAC.  Not to mention, right now BCs are in a good place to deal with t3d and giving them a sig reduction would hurt that quite a bit I feel

suitonia [10:59 PM] Hecate doesn't have that

suitonia[10:59 PM]and has quite a bigger base sig too

suitonia[10:59 PM]and it's fine

fintarue [11:00 PM] Svipul's is a MWD reduction only while in defensive mode

fintarue[11:00 PM]Doesn't get used in almost any situation

suitonia [11:00 PM] yep, the current Svipul gameplay is either of these
1) Arty: You are in speed mode the entire fight
2) AC Brawl: You are in speed mode until you get a scram, then you're in defensive the whole fight

sardcaid [11:01 PM] The way I see T3D, which is similar to T3C, is that they approximate greatly the AS and HAC roles

sardcaid[11:02 PM]If we're lowering the effectiveness of T3D, even if ever so slightly, why not use or use a portion of that role bonus?

suitonia [11:02 PM] Why do they need it ?

sardcaid [11:02 PM] fleet survivability mostly

suitonia [11:02 PM] They should hurt from cruiser weapon s

suitonia[11:02 PM]they're used in fleets already without that

sardcaid [11:03 PM] So a lot of this discussion has talked about increasing signature, reducing resistance bonus, increasing base signature

fintarue [11:04 PM] With the proposed changes to sharpshooter, and possible changes to the base speed and or propulsion mode, I see no reason to necesarily reduce the resists in defense.  Since defense mode, specifically on the Svipul, is a struggle because of no need to swap modes, and because it's naturally high base speed

fintarue[11:05 PM]Combining lots of changes that all blend together might hit them far too hard over all.  Even the dreaded MSE svipul would be much more manageable if the player is forced to decide between damage in sharp, or the extra tank.  That really solidifies the different flavors of the modes as well

sardcaid [11:06 PM] regarding that last statement, meant to type shortening weapon range, reduced resistance, increased base signature

sardcaid[11:06 PM]It's up to CCP to decide what blend of recommendations, if any, to take

sardcaid[11:07 PM]I'd rather flood this chat with what I perceiving are viable routes than leave something on the wayside

fintarue [11:07 PM] Agreed, but if we can all hash out some relatively good proposals it would look better also

sardcaid [11:07 PM] we'll get there

sardcaid[11:07 PM]soon than later I think

fintarue [11:08 PM] With the progress that I feel has been made in the past couple of days, very likely

sardcaid [11:08 PM] I'm hoping we can strike the low hanging fruit by weekend then start looking at more radical design concepts

sardcaid[11:09 PM]Alright,  back to agility.  What about T3Ds validates 2 second align?

sfm_hobb3s [11:11 PM] that's what keeps you alive when you try using t3d in a huge fleet battle

sfm_hobb3s[11:11 PM]that and your guns

sfm_hobb3s[11:12 PM]when you have a few hundred ships on grid tank is not going to matter.  It needs to be just enough to allow you to survive long enough to pop the guy who has you tackled so you can warp off and back in again

sfm_hobb3s[11:13 PM]much more time than that is going to give a lot more guys time to tackle you which is going to mean no big fleet viability

sardcaid [11:13 PM] I don't buy that for fleet stuff

sardcaid[11:14 PM]upon arrive on grid, 2 second align means nothing can tackle you prior to warp, unless in a bubble

sardcaid[11:14 PM]post arrival, for fleet stuff you should be maneuvering towards a warp out anyway

sfm_hobb3s [11:14 PM] yeah I probably should have mentioned most of those battles I've been in were null, and often I landed in bubbles

selto_black [11:16 PM] Wh space also sees no problem with 2sec allign.

fintarue [11:16 PM] I have no issues with it.

sardcaid [11:16 PM] Given worse case scenario for say a dictor, agility which I think should be emulated, it's better than most other ships in game; I don't think interdictors are bad off for align time

selto_black [11:16 PM] Usually if the get past the camp they get caught in the catch bubble.

sfm_hobb3s [11:16 PM] actually those very moments where I land in bubbles usually end with a critical choice in what mode to switch to.  Sometimes I've broken free in armor mode, sometimes prop mode.

sfm_hobb3s[11:17 PM]Thankfully aurora can hit to nearly 50km in that mode.

selto_black [11:18 PM] It should be mentioned that I use the Insta warp trick on the fessor to regularly run 1+B in blue loot through the jita-amarr pipe.

sfm_hobb3s [11:18 PM] I've heard of that trick but never used it

sardcaid [11:18 PM] it's the same thing as hecate align, except requires you to push a button

selto_black [11:18 PM] ^

sfm_hobb3s [11:19 PM] damn ccp making us push buttons

fintarue [11:19 PM] It's trickier though.  If you fudge up the timing you align stupid slow

selto_black [11:19 PM] You inniate warp, ass soon as the server registers it you change modes.

selto_black[11:19 PM]Boom. 2 tick allign.

selto_black[11:20 PM]Nothing in the last 2 hours has rung Anny alarm bells on the pve side so far, though I could have missed something in it all.


-----
October 14th
-----

sardcaid [3:26 AM] Hey guys, john recommended doing a schedule to help folks plan for discussions, sounded like a good idea!

sardcaid[3:27 AM]We've knocked through modes over the past 2.5 days, john is going to help out by placing suggestions for each mode into the summary doc he initially put together

sardcaid[3:28 AM]I'd like to start discussing each ship in turn over the next few days leading up to the weekend

sardcaid[3:28 AM]Over the weekend I figure we'll need a few days to review and rehash on ships or mode discussion

sardcaid[3:29 AM]After that I would like to open the floor to out of the box ideas

sardcaid[3:29 AM]So Weds will be Hecate and Jackdaw (they seem to have the least to be said)

sardcaid[3:29 AM]Thursday will be Confessor

sardcaid[3:29 AM]Late Thursday and Friday will be Svipul

sardcaid[3:30 AM]Sat / Sun rehash / review of modes and ships

sardcaid[3:30 AM]Sunday / Monday will start the out of box stuff

sardcaid[3:31 AM]I still recommend you add your overall ideas to the 'at a glance' spreadsheet I put together, will help over the weekend for the review

sardcaid[3:33 AM]Again, let's talk about the Hecate and Jackdaw starting tomorrow.  What's good?  What's bad?  What should be changed, what should be kept?  Think about fleet work and solo.  Think about combat exploration as well as PvP roles, balancing LR vs SR fits.

sardcaid [3:33 AM]  Pinned a message. See all pinned items in this channel.
sardcaid
Hey guys, john recommended doing a schedule to help folks plan for discussions, sounded like a good idea!
Oct 14th at 3:26 AM

sardcaid [3:33 AM]  Pinned a message. See all pinned items in this channel.
sardcaid
Again, let's talk about the Hecate and Jackdaw starting tomorrow.  What's good?  What's bad?  What should be changed, what should be kept?  Think about fleet work and solo.  Think about combat exploration as well as PvP roles, balancing LR vs SR fits.
Oct 14th at 3:33 AM

scipioartelius [5:25 AM] Schedule looks good. Will start putting my thoughts together in that order

sardcaid [4:24 PM] I'm going to be fairly busy this morning, if anyone wants to start with either the Hecate or Jackdaw discussion, please do

selto_black [5:12 PM] https://youtu.be/yxpW2ltDNow let us categorize ourselves shall we. Then lets analyze t3ds with respect to bartyls theory.
YouTube
Extra Credits
Bartle's Taxonomy - What Type of Player are You? - Extra Credits
 


selto_black[5:14 PM]I myself am an explorer.

selto_black[5:15 PM]@ccp_fozzie with respect to these 4 player subclasses who are t3ds geared twords?

suitonia [6:05 PM] I don't think you can apply Bartle's Taxonomy directly to a ship type.

suitonia[6:08 PM]a ship in eve is best thought of as a modifiable  'tool'  that you use to overcome a challenge, whether that be running a mission/complex, fighting other players, or exploring.

suitonia[6:08 PM]And other things ofc.

johndrees [6:44 PM] So, @selto_black I think the video you linked is interesting, but I think it would be difficult to apply the same logic directly to eve online. Obviously eve is very unique amongst games. I do recall a presentation at one of the fanfests where they had described players in different categories but they weren't precisely analogous to Bartle's Taxonomy. Primarily I don't think its relevant to the discussion about these ships though.

selto_black [6:48 PM] I'd disagree on that last point as no ship is perfect for every type of player. I too remember that fanfest presentation now that you mention it, I should go research it.

suitonia [7:00 PM] https://youtu.be/sOGnPAbHKDk?list=PLQvKSs1k6DLOiGGb44McruXcndTtzUUlu&t=1375
YouTube
EVE Online
EVE Fanfest 2015: EVE Online Keynote
 


suitonia [7:09 PM] Sure. Different ships are going to be useful for different challenges in eve

suitonia[7:10 PM]And they may suit the needs of different players due to what challenges they solve

suitonia[7:10 PM]Like a Noctis is not going to be the ship of choice for exploring, or PvP.

suitonia[7:11 PM]But I don't think you can directly associate a noctis with a player-type from Bartle's Taxonomy, I think it's hard to use this in this context

suitonia[7:12 PM]I think a better context is "What challenges should a Tactical Destroyer be able to solve"

suitonia[7:12 PM]what challenges should it excel at

suitonia[7:13 PM]Obviously they should be optimal for, Shattered Wormhole PVE

suitonia[7:13 PM]And they already are

selto_black [7:15 PM] I don't only run shattered wormholes..... In fact the only reason I do run them is its the best isk:time:effort:engagement ratio I've found.

selto_black[7:16 PM]I'm not sure whether you were trying to suggest that or not.

suitonia [7:18 PM] I am not trying to directly say that at you, I was just suggesting one area where T3Ds should excel at

suitonia[7:19 PM]they probably already are the best low isk investment option for high/low combat exploration, level 1/2 missions, and shattered wormhole PVE

forsot [7:21 PM] i think a better example is t3 cruisers which can be considered to fall into all 4 groups do to its versatility or many other ships will fall into 2-3 groups vary often

selto_black [7:32 PM] That is the problem with versatile ships.

selto_black[7:32 PM]They will be used by more people because they fit into more than one use case.

johndrees [7:35 PM] Maybe, but then again "groups" is a vague word in this context. You're unlikely to encounter a mining legion or a hauling proteus.
My point being that "versatile" can mean a wide range of things but, as sutonia in a way already stated, the ships are generally locked into two main categories which are shooting things and not shooting things.

johndrees[7:37 PM]Procurement of ideas from any sources you find interesting or helpful are excellent for discussion, but trying to squeeze the discussion into the framework of some context free theory about game design is not worthwhile and in fact will likely continue to sidetrack the conversation further than it already has.

johndrees[7:38 PM]We are here because we love eve online, because we are thought to perhaps know enough to contribute to it in some small way. We aren't here to be game designers in general or for eve in particular.

selto_black [7:40 PM] Hauling prot is a thing.

selto_black[7:41 PM]cloaky gank prot filled with blue loot.

selto_black[7:43 PM]But Ill give the point to you without qualifiers.

selto_black[7:43 PM]Eh that is poorly worded.

sardcaid [9:00 PM] It's been almost a full day, I think it's safe to chat about Confessors.  If anyone wants to bring up Hecate / Jackdaw, please do.

sardcaid[9:01 PM]Let's talk about the Confessor.  What's good?  What's bad?  What should be changed, what should be kept?  Think about fleet work and solo.  Think about combat exploration as well as PvP roles, balancing LR vs SR fits.

sardcaid [9:01 PM]  Pinned a message. See all pinned items in this channel.
sardcaid
Let's talk about the Confessor.  What's good?  What's bad?  What should be changed, what should be kept?  Think about fleet work and solo.  Think about combat exploration as well as PvP roles, balancing LR vs SR fits.
Oct 14th at 9:01 PM

sardcaid [9:02 PM] I'd like to point out for these ship discussions, some of the previous dialogue using fits as examples of why attributes or bonuses are unbalanced, please bring those back up, or share them!

suitonia [9:26 PM] What's good about the Confessor: Both Pulse/Beam fits feel balanced with the fitting resources available, I feel like the Confessor has a lot more tangible weaknesses (But also a lot of strengths too) which the Svipul does not have (3 Mids is quite limiting as you have to choose between web or injector on a lot of fits), the lower base tracking, and the fact that it needs cap to shoot provides a few more options for players to try and take advantage of it. The Confessor has a lot of projection, speed and damage, but it doesn't have all of that at once.  
What's bad about the Confessor: Speed mode providing huge base speed negates a lot of weaknesses with lower tracking beams/pulse weapons. The Defense mode signature bonus is cool, but in Defence mode it has a smaller signature than a Punisher which doesn't feel quite right...

suitonia[9:27 PM]I think the Confessor has too much passive damage mitigation in speed and defence modes, due to sig/base speed

suitonia[9:28 PM]But I like that the Sharpshooter mode is really valuable on it

suitonia[9:28 PM]unlike the Svipul

suitonia[9:28 PM]so mode swapping on confessor is more rewarding and necessary

suitonia[9:30 PM]TL;DR I think the Confessor currently sits above the Hecate/Jackdaw in balance, but it's not as broken as the Svipul due to more tangible weaknesses and mode swapping is required to get more out of the ship, placing it at a higher skill cap than the Svipul has

suitonia[9:32 PM]beam sniper fits are more vulnerable than artillery svipul fits due to the Arty Svipul getting that defensive web for free and having more raw buffer

johndrees [9:40 PM] Yeah, pretty much nailed that on the head. I'll add that the defensive mode while it can occasionally be useful is much less useful than the other two modes when in a beam configuration.

johndrees[9:42 PM]And since you have to swap into sharp shooter mode to hit at really long range you do actually become vulnerable to other long range dps since you are slower and have no sig bonus. This has become much more significant since the recent buffs to combat battlecruisers. Which is great, and I think places the beam fits further in balance than they were previously.

johndrees[9:44 PM]I don't know if those battlecruiser changes have fully "sunk in" to the whole consciousness of the game. They make a big difference and actually allow combat BC to very effectively counter t3d while in the same price range.

sardcaid [9:55 PM] I really don't see how they're a counter to T3D, but on the same token I find more brawling T3D than sniping T3D as serious threats to how I typically play

suitonia [10:00 PM] I think Confessor needs a base sig nerf tho

suitonia[10:00 PM]Along with Svipul

suitonia[10:01 PM]It's pretty ridiculous that a Confessor in some cases takes less cruiser missile DPS than some frigates

sardcaid [10:04 PM] So bring their sig inline with destroyer level sig?

sardcaid[10:05 PM]It's very much what makes Confessor / Svipul so difficult to deal with

sardcaid[10:05 PM]The resistances are really good, but normally EHP isn't crazy wild

sardcaid[10:06 PM]it's the fact that fast speed coupled with tiny sig, those few shots you're able to get in are absorbed effectively

sardcaid[10:08 PM]I'm cautious about undervaluing adjustments to sig on those two ships though - if we mess with sig, we should make certain we can draw parallels elsewhere, or have something to back up it won't overnerf the ship

sardcaid[10:08 PM]which is partly why I brought up the MWD sig penalty reduction over the past few days

fintarue [10:09 PM] The confessor EHP is far tamer than Svipul.  I second/third/fourth wherever we're at, for removing the sig bonus on the confessor.  Mid size weapons apply too poorly.  The resists atm are practically a non factor just because it can mitigate a huge porition of mid sized weapon damage from it's sig radius alone.

fintarue[10:10 PM]Taking off the scan res bonus, and reducing the lock range bonus of Sharpshooter.   I wouldn't change the base lock range, just the Sharp bonus to force a decision of whether a Sebo is needed or not, and to increase the effectiveness of damps against them.

fintarue[10:12 PM]I'm borderline about the ranges it can potentially apply range at.  300dps out to 70km I want to say is too much, but this is a situation that isn't as key in bigger fleet fights since those fits can be volleyed easily off the field, and is more an issue of small gang

sardcaid [10:17 PM] Current opt bonus is 66%, yes?

sardcaid[10:18 PM]I'd bring that down to 50% to match other destroyer snipers and make them less redundant

fintarue [10:18 PM] I believe so.  My biggest concern is that although the beam fits hit hard at far ranges, I'd hate to see the pulses get hit.  As it's something a pilot really already considered when flying a brawling fit and you need to deal with scram/skirmish kiters

sardcaid [10:19 PM] at 50% it'd be the same as coercer pulse range

sardcaid[10:19 PM]pretty good

sardcaid[10:20 PM]I'm not sure if much talk was made about it, but what would be used to replace the sig boni on the confessor?

sardcaid[10:20 PM]I figure rep amount is genericly good given the ship's common dependence on small local reps

chessur [10:21 PM] What about cap use on guns?

fintarue [10:21 PM] It already has that

sardcaid [10:21 PM] base hull still has that

fintarue [10:21 PM] On the base hull ya

chessur [10:22 PM] No as increased bonus

sardcaid [10:22 PM] increased where?

sardcaid[10:22 PM]just increase the hull bonus, or put it in a mode?

chessur [10:22 PM] As in, inside defence mode

chessur[10:22 PM]Something more unique

sardcaid [10:22 PM] I understand why you recommend that but it feels odd anyway

chessur [10:22 PM] Imo

suitonia [10:22 PM] http://puu.sh/kKu8c/b87008647c.png (11KB)




chessur [10:23 PM] To make guns free basically

suitonia [10:23 PM] All T3 tactical destroyers have smaller sigs than interdictor counterparts

chessur [10:23 PM] More room to rep

suitonia [10:23 PM] and many have lower sig than T1 counter-parts

fintarue [10:23 PM] Honestly, I don't feel the cap is a big deal on the confessor.

sardcaid [10:24 PM] with the turret reduction and retained cap bonus, that doesn't surprise me

fintarue [10:24 PM] It's never something I've been super concerned about, and with 2 utility highs for potential nos'

suitonia [10:24 PM] Typically. T1 Ships have smaller sigs than T2 ships, and T3 cruisers have larger sigs than everything else, aside from a select few configs like the sig reduction one on loki

fintarue [10:24 PM] Armor rep bonus would be fun, but I can honestly say that it would probably go too far

sardcaid [10:25 PM] well there's not a lot of history of T3 ships to base off of

sardcaid[10:25 PM]T3s just took a sig nerf as well

sardcaid[10:25 PM]I'm a fan of T3D having T2+ sig, plus being slightly better

sardcaid[10:26 PM]that's where the jackdaw and hecate lie

sardcaid[10:26 PM]puts them between T2 and T1

fintarue [10:27 PM] The svipul's in silly low naturally.  I'd definitely take off the sig bonus for the jackdaw and confessor

chessur [10:27 PM] It can be when brawling

chessur[10:27 PM]Under neut pressure

sardcaid [10:27 PM] that's healthy for a laser boat though

fintarue [10:27 PM] Agreed, and with a cap booster it still holds up under a medium neut extremely well

sardcaid [10:28 PM] I like the idea of a cap bonus on defense

chessur [10:28 PM] More cap, meaning web is possible in some situations

sardcaid [10:28 PM] gives me the khanid feel

fintarue [10:28 PM] suddenly changed your mind

chessur [10:29 PM] And more pve application

chessur[10:29 PM]Along with more resistant to med neuts

sardcaid [10:29 PM] Not for free or ~ free cap use on guns

sardcaid[10:29 PM]but maybe a cap recharge or amount bonus?

fintarue [10:29 PM] Ok, how about this then, instead of a gun bonus since it has it

chessur [10:29 PM] Yah, something like that

fintarue [10:29 PM] How about in defense mode a cap reduction on armor reps

chessur [10:29 PM] That coyld work as well

fintarue [10:29 PM] Since often the pve fits are armor rep fit

sardcaid [10:29 PM] yeah I was just thinking about that too

chessur [10:30 PM] Or just a bonus to cap regen in defense mode

fintarue [10:30 PM] Has a similar effect without being redundant

chessur [10:30 PM] That is very flexible

sardcaid [10:30 PM] either suggestion would pretty much make single rep svipul free to use without a cap booster

fintarue [10:30 PM] confessor?

sardcaid [10:30 PM] sorry

chessur [10:30 PM] Works with rr, and with self rep

sardcaid [10:30 PM] confessor

sardcaid[10:30 PM]yeah

sardcaid[10:31 PM]haha, yeah I like that

suitonia [10:31 PM] So putting T3Ds at least between T1 Destroyers and T2 would be a start

sardcaid [10:31 PM] full RR confessor with a cap battery

fintarue [10:31 PM] That would be a really neat change to rr confessors.  They're already breakable but it could help out with damage application options

suitonia [10:31 PM] Move Confessor from 60m to 70m, move svipul from 50m to 66m

suitonia[10:31 PM]roughly

sardcaid [10:31 PM] 66.6

fintarue [10:31 PM] lol

sardcaid [10:31 PM] :wink:

chessur [10:31 PM] 77.7 CONFESSOR

chessur[10:31 PM]66.6 svipul

suitonia [10:32 PM] Well heretic is 75

chessur [10:32 PM] DONE

suitonia [10:32 PM] Dragoon is 66

suitonia[10:32 PM]should be between there

sardcaid [10:32 PM] fuck it let's decimal error

sardcaid[10:32 PM]666 sig on svipul

sardcaid[10:32 PM]DONE

suitonia [10:32 PM] 70 sounds good because its the same as hecate/jackdaw

fintarue [10:32 PM] 70 is a nice non OCD triggering number

suitonia [10:32 PM] and seems reasonable

sardcaid [10:32 PM] yup yup

fintarue [10:33 PM] Jackdaws is often a bit larger because of shield extenders or rigs

fintarue[10:33 PM]Again, opting to remove the sig bonus though

sardcaid [10:33 PM] chess how do you feel about confessor projection dropping from 66% boni in sharp to 50%

sardcaid[10:33 PM]same as coerc / slicer

chessur [10:33 PM] I am all in favor of t3d losing projection

sardcaid [10:34 PM] cool

chessur [10:34 PM] Its opressive

sardcaid [10:34 PM] agree

fintarue [10:34 PM] Th svipul's is reasonable

chessur [10:34 PM] And so manybother ships do it already

chessur[10:34 PM]Many other*

fintarue [10:34 PM] 50km is stretching it really hard, and it's minimal at that point

johndrees [10:34 PM] Either speed or range has to go lol. I'd rather see range than speed be nerfed.

chessur [10:35 PM] ^ agreed

suitonia [10:35 PM] The svipuls is on the base hull, all the modes have multiples of 3 bonuses

suitonia[10:35 PM]for "flavor"

suitonia[10:35 PM]whether or not that is balanced or not though

fintarue [10:35 PM] Svipul's should be on Sharp

sardcaid [10:35 PM] svipul also has non range bonus for SR guns however

chessur [10:35 PM] Falloff bonus imo

chessur[10:35 PM]50%

sardcaid [10:36 PM] let's finish up conf discussion before svipul talk

chessur [10:36 PM] Gives acs with barrage 1.3+23

chessur[10:36 PM]With out mods

chessur[10:36 PM]Which is a nice place to be

fintarue [10:36 PM] lololol

chessur [10:36 PM] Tone damage down a bit

chessur[10:36 PM]And that would be fun

chessur[10:36 PM]Hecate brawling, confessor kiting

chessur[10:37 PM]And svipul inbetween- where minny ships should be

chessur[10:37 PM]No tracking bonus fyi

chessur[10:37 PM]But svipul is Saturday right?

johndrees [10:38 PM] Yes I like that.

chessur [10:38 PM] Arty still works, but worse.

chessur[10:39 PM]And svipul has unique niche with long ranfe autos

chessur[10:39 PM]Less dps than confessor at 20k obviously,  pess than hecate brawling

chessur[10:39 PM]But very nice dps 13-20k

chessur[10:39 PM]Which is fun

sardcaid [10:39 PM] Svipul is tonight or tomorrow

fintarue [10:39 PM] Meh, I'd rather not toss a ship into a problem that other minnie ships already have

chessur [10:39 PM] I have a few unique flavors of speed mode to throw on svipul

johndrees [10:39 PM] 3+km/sec with 220dps to 70ish km is what makes the confessor such a bitch to kill when combined with its low sig. Almost anything fast enough to catch up isn't tanky enough to deal with the incoming dps from more than a couple of them.

sardcaid [10:39 PM] depending on people bringing up more confessor stuff

chessur [10:40 PM] To amp up that type of gameplay

fintarue [10:40 PM] Pretty much john

johndrees [10:40 PM] You've probably all enjoyed this perk of the ship in your own gameplay.

johndrees[10:41 PM]If you increase the sig at the very least, long range sniping ships can begin to counter them.

sardcaid [10:41 PM] mostly tanking it in a BC / BS silently and cursing, john

johndrees [10:41 PM] Lol

johndrees[10:42 PM]Well I have abused the absolute shit out of that.

sardcaid [10:43 PM] A reminder for everyone, I've been pinning prompts and announcements, you can click on the i or member pop buttons top right to see pinned messages

chessur [10:43 PM] Where is ccp in all of this?

chessur[10:43 PM]:(

sardcaid [10:43 PM] ghost town

chessur [10:43 PM] Would be nice to hear their input

sardcaid [10:43 PM] was hoping @gorski_car could ask about things

sardcaid[10:44 PM]but frankly I think we're fine as is

sardcaid[10:44 PM]only thing I could really ask of them is if they had a topic or idea they wanted input on

sardcaid[10:44 PM]other than that the spitballing we're tossing out are good for design

chessur [10:45 PM] So are we still on confessor?

sardcaid [10:46 PM] oh you

chessur [10:46 PM] Dexrease optimal, give cap bonus in defense, change sig, give -25%dps out of sharpshooter

chessur[10:46 PM]And change flat velocity bonus to mwd sig?

chessur[10:46 PM]Did i miss anything?

sardcaid [10:46 PM] I'd prefer to wait a few hours for people to toss their ideas in instead of marching on, but I also don't want to stifle discussion if we've good participation

chessur [10:47 PM] Sry not trying to push anything

chessur[10:47 PM]My bad

sardcaid [10:47 PM] lemme formally start and pin svipul, and people can catch up and pitch in on previous ships if they feel for it

sardcaid[10:47 PM]Let's talk about the Svipul.  What's good?  What's bad?  What should be changed, what should be kept?  Think about fleet work and solo.  Think about combat exploration as well as PvP roles, balancing LR vs SR fits.

sardcaid[10:48 PM]As with the rest of the day, if you would like to go back and address previous points on the Confessor, Hecate or Jackdaw, please do so.

johndrees [10:48 PM] I think the confessor should probably hit out to around 50 with beams in ss mode and have its sig increased to standard destroyers.

sardcaid [10:48 PM]  Pinned a message. See all pinned items in this channel.
sardcaid
Let's talk about the Svipul.  What's good?  What's bad?  What should be changed, what should be kept?  Think about fleet work and solo.  Think about combat exploration as well as PvP roles, balancing LR vs SR fits.
Oct 14th at 10:47 PM

sardcaid [10:48 PM] okay go ham

suitonia [10:49 PM] http://puu.sh/kKvoj/c6e954b3a7.png (294KB)




Here are some graphs about Heavy Assault Missiles applying to T3Ds (With 1x 57.5% web). Drone damage is disabled.
Hecate (All modes) Takes 330 DPS out of 352 DPS (seems fair)
Confessor (Sharpshooter) Takes 280 DPS out of 352 DPS (50 DPS reduction even in sharpshooter from Hecate, this is a 15% damage reduction just from the base sig/speed stats )
Confessor (Defensive) takes 190 DPS out of 352 DPS (140 DPS reduction from the Hecate in all modes,  this is a 42% damage reduction!!!!)
Confessor (Speed) takes 220 DPS out of 352 DPS (110 DPS reduction from the Hecate in all modes, this is a 33% damage reduction)

suitonia[10:50 PM]Graphs: Top Left (Hecate) Top Right (Confessor Sharpshooter), Bottom Left (Confessor Defence), Bottom right (Confessor Speed)

sardcaid [10:52 PM] I'd like to point out I said "okay go ham" and suitonia pastes the knowledge bomb he's been formatting for the past 15 minutes just afterwards

fintarue [10:52 PM] lolol

sardcaid [10:52 PM] about ham

sardcaid[10:52 PM]we should be friends

sardcaid[10:52 PM]!

suitonia [10:53 PM] haha

suitonia[10:53 PM]but yeah, without dragging the confessor discussion on

suitonia[10:53 PM]I think this shows

suitonia[10:53 PM]why the base sig/speed stats on confessor/svipul get ridicilious

suitonia[10:53 PM]when it comes to cruiser application

suitonia[10:55 PM]Anyway Svipul

suitonia[10:59 PM]The Good: It feels good when they blow up, like Falcons 
The Bad: Too much EHP/DPS stats on brawling fits with no weaknesses in regards to cap/speed etc. Also has incredible shield regen even when not fit for it (90 DPS passive tank for free, this has changed the cruiser meta completely to needing to be able to deal with the Svipul particulary, since a Svipul can permatank a flight of light drones just for free on it's base stats, huge base sig/speed stats mean you need dual webs to track it often, missile BCs can even die to it in a 1v1 because of this lol). Svipul has a very low skill cap, 90% of the time you will never swap modes in a Svipul, defensive mode and ram.

suitonia[10:59 PM]unlike kiting confessors/hecate which needs to switch to sharpshooter to project, Svipul gets it on the hull, so there is little need to swap out of speed mode when kiting

fintarue [11:00 PM] lol I was looking through my footage for DD stuff and I just watched 2 svipul fights I had that were silly like that.  1v4 against t1 frigs, and 1v3 against comets and a tristan, tough, but still easily winnable.

fintarue[11:01 PM]And it was, speed mode approach, defense mode.  Didn't even have a web.  Not dual mse tank

suitonia [11:01 PM] The lack of dependency on cap while having the passive mitigation and regen that it has makes it have no weaknesses, while the hecate and confessor at least fear neuts

suitonia[11:02 PM]because of that, the dual neut svipul is particulary strong (for the same reason the cane was back in the day)

suitonia[11:02 PM]because you just dump your cap and don't care

sardcaid [11:02 PM] removing the velocity bonus will do a great deal to realize a fear of neuts with the svip

suitonia [11:03 PM] yeah removing the base speed, and turning into prop mode on bonus/mass reduction will help there

suitonia[11:03 PM]because you can at least neut off an ab if it has one

sardcaid [11:03 PM] yup

suitonia [11:03 PM] and if its mwd/scram then it won't mitigate as much

sardcaid [11:03 PM] will make it more worthwhile to use tanking mode for when you get caught

suitonia [11:03 PM] I think a lot of underlining issues specifically with the svipul are to do with acs/arty balance unfortunately

suitonia[11:03 PM]like ac fits getting dual neuts for free

sardcaid [11:04 PM] yeah

sardcaid[11:04 PM]we were talking about an artillery fitting bonus on the base hull instead of opt, removing tracking on sharpshooter and adding the range bonus to sharp shooter

sardcaid[11:04 PM]the other day

johndrees [11:04 PM] The resistance profile of the svipul is sooooo nice in shields, you don't have to bother plugging any holes and so it can focus on pure buffer. Maybe that should be shifted?

suitonia [11:05 PM] It has the same resistances as all minmatar t2 ships

sardcaid [11:05 PM] doesn't address the greater issue about artillery being a chore for all minnie ships, but I think just about all other minnie ships bear the burden well

suitonia [11:05 PM] I don't think that should change

fintarue [11:05 PM] I have little issue with the resists

suitonia [11:05 PM] There are some ships which have balanced arty and AC fits

suitonia[11:05 PM]like the Firetail for example

fintarue [11:05 PM] Extremely.

sardcaid [11:05 PM] that's mostly due to module slot restrictions I feel

fintarue [11:05 PM] Other's can't even do arty without sacrificing everything to them

fintarue[11:06 PM]Arty has the fitting for it

fintarue[11:06 PM]Slasher/Rifter can't do it without 2-3 fitting mods

suitonia [11:06 PM] well the firetail only has to fit 2 guns

suitonia[11:06 PM]which is why

suitonia[11:06 PM]you can give it the grid to fit those 2 guns

suitonia[11:06 PM]without giving ACs everything

sardcaid [11:06 PM] svipul only has to fit 4 of 6 highslots, firetail has the same huge grid to work with really

suitonia [11:07 PM] Sure, but it can't spend that grid as freely as the svipul

sardcaid [11:07 PM] agree

sardcaid[11:11 PM]Regarding that projection bonus on the svipul, chessur tossed out 50% falloff, is that where we'd want to land?

fintarue [11:11 PM] Why not a mixed bonus similar to what the BCs got?

sardcaid [11:12 PM] yeaaah I was was thinking about a 33% falloff and opt

sardcaid[11:13 PM]20+ in barrage seems oppressive to me from a ship that dishes out a heap of dps in sharpshooter, though on flip side this will be from a ship with nearly 50% more sig and a reason to be in sharpshooter, not defense

sardcaid[11:13 PM]that's also barrage, not EMP, though I don't think that number chess threw out involved any mods / rigs

sardcaid[11:14 PM]oh no shit the sabre has a 10% per level too, thought it was 7.5

sardcaid[11:14 PM]I think the sabre feels quite good, and the two ships have about the same damage output in sharp with the 1.2 bonus we're tossing around

sardcaid[11:15 PM]I'm okay with 10% per level then, the 50%

suitonia [11:31 PM] 33% to falloff+optimal might be a little better with the flavors taken into account

johndrees [11:33 PM] What's the goal range? I think 20-24 with barrage seems ok.

chessur [11:38 PM] 20k barrage before fitting mods imo

chessur[11:38 PM]No optimal or tracking bonus

chessur[11:38 PM]With no tracking,  svipul becomes far less opressive with arty fits

chessur[11:39 PM]I like tge idea of the svipul having thw ability to be an arty sniper, or an ac kiter

fintarue [11:39 PM] It's not the tracking that makes them oppressive, since thy hardly use sharp mode as is

fintarue[11:39 PM]The speed of prop mode makes up for no tracking

chessur [11:39 PM] Arty svipul lives in sharp shooter mode currently

chessur[11:40 PM]Speed only to outrun target

fintarue [11:40 PM] I feel like you've missed a good portion of what Suitonia has been talking about with the arty svipul.  They don't really need sharp mode to track because of how fast they can go in Prop mode.  They can easily counter transversal and keep at range in speed mode

fintarue[11:40 PM]And they don't need sharpshooter for range

suitonia [11:41 PM] What chessur?

suitonia[11:41 PM]You are in speed mode the whole fight

suitonia[11:41 PM]even against  a mwd/scram/web slasher that gets on top of you and establishes orbit 500

suitonia[11:41 PM]speed mode gives more tracking than sharpshooter does

suitonia[11:41 PM]and thats the lowest sig/fastest frig in the game

suitonia[11:42 PM]you move at 479m/s or w/e it is in speed mode

suitonia[11:42 PM]which is faster than most frigates in the game

suitonia[11:42 PM]so with your defensive web countering their web

suitonia[11:42 PM]you move faster

suitonia[11:42 PM]0 traversal

suitonia[11:42 PM]perfect hits

suitonia[11:43 PM]You don't need the tracking on sharpshooter at all

suitonia[11:44 PM]the only svipuls that live in sharpshooter are the instalocking variety

suitonia[11:44 PM]and even then

suitonia[11:44 PM]they swap when they've got a lock

johndrees [11:49 PM] When I have flown the svipul in an arty configuration I have left it in speed mode most of the time. It's engagement range doesn't change by switching modes and unless targets close range it doesn't have any trouble tracking targets. (edited)


-----
October 15th
-----

selto_black [12:10 AM] sorry for the late entry but +1 for the cap cost reduction on armor reps for the fessor.

selto_black[12:12 AM]I also did talk to fozzie today and he has been super busy. http://puu.sh/kKA7C/99931bf50e.png (52KB)




selto_black[12:12 AM]this is what he had to say when i poked him eairlier today

johndrees [12:19 AM] Nice

johndrees[12:19 AM]Even knowing the approximate duration for the group is very helpful.

chessur [12:40 AM] Hmm, perhpas my vision is colored because the people i know flying arty svip are linked and snaked lol

chessur[12:40 AM]But, for normal people i am wrong then :)

chessur[12:40 AM]Speed = infinate tracking

chessur [12:54 AM] Also a few months run time

chessur[12:54 AM]Hot damn

fintarue [12:54 AM] Was not expecting

chessur [12:54 AM] Same

johndrees [12:57 AM] Well in my opinion 3km/s before heat is the approximate speed where a ship, capable of dominating frigates, becomes a serious problem because not that many cruisers can keep up. So if you have links/snakes it certainly makes sense to enjoy the tracking bonus since you're above that 3km/s mark anyway.
Also, "months", best thing I've read all day :)

selto_black [1:11 AM] Yesss.

selto_black[1:12 AM]And yes chessur links implants and drugs colour your opinion I'd guess.

chessur [1:14 AM] :D

selto_black [1:14 AM] Just as switching wh environments colours mine.

sardcaid [2:41 AM] huh

sardcaid[2:42 AM]is it just me or are we overachieving with an assumed duration of 'a few months'

sardcaid[2:42 AM]I mean unless he has some dev knowledge bombs to drop

forsot [2:43 AM] you mean asside from rummers of t2 frig logi >.>

fintarue [2:44 AM] and navy ewar frigs

forsot [2:46 AM] from a wher perspective the t2 logi would be game changer with current t3 desis

forsot[2:46 AM]atm t1 frig logi is useless

fintarue [2:46 AM] Uh

forsot [2:46 AM] for wh stuff

fintarue [2:46 AM] You sir don't fly enough t1 logi frigs

fintarue[2:46 AM]Ok lol

forsot [2:46 AM] you get vollyed so easy

fintarue [2:46 AM] That may be true

fintarue[2:46 AM]That's likely the same case  even if they were t2 though

forsot [2:47 AM] i guy can dream cant he

sardcaid [2:52 AM] dream of not having to deal with T2 resist pod sig inteceptor speed 50km rep range rep t1 cruiser rep output frigate logi

sardcaid[2:52 AM]by writing this it will come to pass

chessur [4:15 AM] The last thing eve needs is more space clerics

chessur[4:15 AM]Also, eafs are currently some of the most op ships in game, please no more.

fintarue [4:18 AM] eafs die stupid easy

gorski_car [6:41 AM] U wot m8

gorski_car[6:42 AM]Also i have not seen any stats but t2 frig logi could be done with some more offensive capabilities

suitonia [10:55 AM] T1 logi frigs are powerful but balanced

suitonia[10:55 AM]because 25km range

suitonia[10:55 AM]or thereabouts

suitonia[10:56 AM]normally going to be in heavy neut range for BS, cruiser sized ships can shoot them from their rep positions and they actually take damage due to having reasonable sigs

suitonia[10:56 AM]and frigs can kill them pretty quickly if they are isolated

suitonia [11:05 AM] They are messing with fall-off on remote assist modules this winter

suitonia[11:06 AM]Would be nice to see t1 cruiser logi get nerfed especially

chessur [11:17 AM] Eafs are borderline unkillable when flown properly. Even from rlml ships.

sardcaid [2:02 PM] To put us back topic and wildly ahead on schedule, let's spend the next day or so to rehash and come back to any topics we've discussed than any of us would like to discuss more.  These topics include each of the ship hulls and their attributes and fittings, so the Hecate, Jackdaw, Confessor and Svipul in turn.  In addition, we've discussed each of these ships' Defense, Propulsion and Sharpshooter modes as they apply to each ship and as a ship class trait.

sardcaid[2:03 PM]I remind everyone to go back through the pinned items to review previous discussion for each of these topics

sardcaid[2:03 PM]Also in the pinned items is the initial design prompt provided for us by CCP Fozzie

sardcaid[2:04 PM]Lastly, concluding this review session, I'd like to explore more exotic or challenging ideas for balancing or altering T3Ds.  This exploratory session will start some time Friday or early Saturday, depending on today's activity.

sardcaid [2:05 PM]  Pinned a message. See all pinned items in this channel.
sardcaid
To put us back topic and wildly ahead on schedule, let's spend the next day or so to rehash and come back to any topics we've discussed than any of us would like to discuss more.  These topics include each of the ship hulls and their attributes and fittings, so the Hecate, Jackdaw, Confessor and Svipul in turn.  In addition, we've discussed each of these ships' Defense, Propulsion and Sharpshooter modes as they apply to each ship and as a ship class trait.
Oct 15th at 2:02 PM

chessur [4:27 PM] Ok crazy idea time. Each t3d gets unique mode. That replaces def / propulsion / sharpshooter

chessur[4:27 PM]Jackdaw: deflection shield.  When active, (upon first switching to def mode)jackdaw shield hp cannot fall below 15% for 5 seconds. During this time, no shield boost, shield transfer allowed. (edited)

chessur[4:28 PM]After 5 seconds, jackdaw is back to normal defense mode

chessur[4:30 PM]Svipul: propulsion modification. While mwd is active, and in this mode- svipul loses 35% speed, keeps normal signature,  but scrams do not turn off mwd. Scram will simply slow svipul additional 25% before web (edited)

chessur[4:34 PM]Confessor: sharpshooter mode, crystal lattice modification. While in sharpshooter, confessor has ability to slowly switch damge type, from em/ therm to explo/kin. 5% change in damage modification per shot. Damage mode is toggle on / toggle off while in sharpshooter- and resets once leaving mode.

chessur[4:37 PM]Hecate: multi rep. While in defense mode, armor reppers can repair structure. If structure is 100% reps act normally on armor.

johndrees [5:32 PM] Aww yeah, let's get weird!

johndrees[5:36 PM]Ok, so what about a huge bonus to speed in prop mode BUT only when cloaked. They still couldn't use covert ops cloaks but a single cycle of mwd while cloaked could move them like 20km+. All other mechanics could stay the same with regard to targeting delays, diminished scan resolution, and inability to use modules while cloaked. Just getting weird :)

chessur [5:48 PM] You cant cloak while targeted, so it hws little value imo

johndrees [6:22 PM] Haha well here is where I picture it being fun. You jump through a gate and see a few ships set up in a camp, you pick your target mwd cloak and get on them before they can do anything. Idk, just spitballing.

selto_black [7:58 PM] Adding a 4th mode? Bonuses to ewar? Amarr get td's, gallente damps, minmatar webs, Caldari festival launchers.

johndrees [8:21 PM] Ha

ccp_fozzie [11:18 PM] Hey guys, sorry for being a stranger this week

fintarue [11:19 PM] Who's this guy

ccp_fozzie [11:19 PM] been swamped with some work that we moved up (we're announcing some of it tomorrow)

fintarue [11:19 PM] Oh nice, I'm interested.

ccp_fozzie [11:19 PM] I'm gonna catch up on the backscroll as soon as I can, but in the meantime keep being awesome and having productive conversations and whatever else you do


-----
October 16th
-----

chessur [1:20 AM] Fozzie lives!

ascentior [1:21 AM] Going to have to back-scroll a lot guys. Sorry I've been inactive the last few days. Just really crook

ascentior[1:22 AM]And warning, I'm going to be ranting about why T3Ds should never be removed from smalls in FW

sfm_hobb3s [1:25 AM] I'll add this broad generalization in here while I'm at it.  As 'OP' as many still call T3D's, they are gradually experiencing indirect nerfing.  For instance, the recent buffs to battlecruisers present a clear and present danger to t3's now that they have much greater reach.

ascentior [1:28 AM] But the general premise is; 
T3Ds should be vulnerable to a small gang (2-3) of frigs, and in the most part, they are.
T3Ds should be vulnerable to an anti-frig fitted cruiser.
This means they are NOT OP in small plexes, and they will be outclassed completely in mediums.
As it stands, T3Ds are dying daily to well piloted destroyers, and that should continue.

sfm_hobb3s [1:29 AM] I like that line of reasoning

sfm_hobb3s[1:30 AM]holds true to long range sniping t3's.  Once more  than one or two frigs get close things go to pot.  As it should.

chessur [1:31 AM] I disagree with your argument

chessur[1:31 AM]Smalls are not t3d friendly

chessur[1:32 AM]T3ds are not vulnerable to small 3 man frig groups. That is what they are designed to fight

sfm_hobb3s [1:37 AM] I can't speak for fw plexes...never done any fw stuff.  I went over some of my confessor sniper lossmails (not too many of those lol).  Chessur's right.  Not seeing anything less than six or 7 frigs on them.  In big fleets getting tackled by two or three can be a death sentence (you might not be able to  kill them fast enough before you get primaried).

ascentior [1:38 AM] A well piloted t1 destroyer should beat a kiting T3D if it manages to catch it.
A well piloted t1 kite destroyer should be able to kill a brawl T3D with some time and risk (and a well piloted T3D could still use good piloting to catch or leave)

sfm_hobb3s [1:39 AM] Heh, apparently I have a total of 8 confessor losses.  Making it about 187:1 efficiency :wink:

chessur [1:39 AM] T1 destroyer will always lose to t3d. No conceivable way imo that t3d losses assuming proper fit and piloting (edited)

ascentior [1:39 AM] T3Ds are absolutely vulnerable to small gangs of frigs. The only time they aren't, is if they start at their range. A small gang of frigs should not warp in on a T3D. Simple

sfm_hobb3s [1:39 AM] A t1 destroyer fitting max resists to your damage type will still lose

ascentior [1:40 AM] But a T3D would be taking a risk warping in on 3 frigs

chessur [1:40 AM] Ok so you admit tgat a t3d if in the plex is a no go for 3 frigs

sfm_hobb3s [1:40 AM] but then again that is brave I'm talking about....no offense to them of course but....

chessur [1:40 AM] But you are advocating that they be allowed?

ascentior [1:40 AM] Yeah, and a dragoon in a plex is a no go for frigs

ascentior[1:41 AM]A Garmur or Worm?! Don't even think about it

chessur [1:41 AM] A t3d can warp into frigs

chessur[1:41 AM]Do you have an example where that would not be the case?

chessur[1:41 AM]Garmur is not that good

chessur[1:41 AM]Worm is on the other hand

chessur[1:42 AM]Both are far weaker than T3D

ascentior [1:42 AM] https://zkillboard.com/kill/49597247/

zkillboard.com
Svipul | Eunice Akinia | Killmail
Eunice Akinia (Tribal Liberation Force) lost their Svipul in Ezzara (Devoid). Final Blow by Maria Daphiti (PIE Inc.) flying in a Dragoon. Total Value: 111,644,097.34 ISK

selto_black [1:42 AM] warping in on a sentinel

chessur [1:42 AM] Posting random mails makes no sense...

chessur[1:42 AM]I would warp in on a sentinel np

chessur[1:42 AM]I fit cap boosters

sfm_hobb3s [1:42 AM] I've killed a number  of worms  in my beam confessor, sometimes blapping their drones first

chessur [1:43 AM] Sentinel is not scary

chessur[1:43 AM]To a T3D

ascentior [1:43 AM] Ask for an example, get an example

chessur [1:43 AM] A jackdaw would 2 shot it, svipul would run it down, same with the confessor

chessur[1:44 AM]I was asking for a situation, i should have specified

sfm_hobb3s [1:44 AM] haven't shot many sentinels yet, but crucifiers last the time it takes beams to cycle 1 time

sfm_hobb3s[1:44 AM]at 80km

chessur [1:46 AM] TDs are useless if yoy dont have range control

chessur[1:47 AM]Svipul runs you down, confessor runs you down, jackdaw kills you, and hecate cab more than likely do the same

suitonia [1:47 AM] I think banning T3Ds from smalls creates more choices, and also lowers the bar for new players

suitonia[1:47 AM]small plexes should be accessible

chessur [1:47 AM] ^ agreed

suitonia [1:48 AM] Small Plex Meta with T3Ds enabled: T3D or go home
Small Plex Meta with T3Ds Disabled: T1 Destroyers, Interdictors, AFs, EAFs

chessur [1:48 AM] You speak the truth brother

suitonia [1:48 AM] it's already been announced and the vast majority of the FW community agrees with this.

suitonia[1:49 AM]T3Cs are banned from mediums, T3Ds are banned from smalls makes sense consistency wide too

suitonia[1:50 AM]T3Cs are banned from mediums but they're still everywhere in lowsec

suitonia[1:50 AM]I imagine T3Ds will fare the same

suitonia[1:50 AM]when you remove the cruiser counter-part T3Ds get too broken

suitonia[1:50 AM]I mean... A Svipul in speed mode at 0km in dual buffer fit wins against max DPS gank catalyst at 0

suitonia[1:51 AM]There aren't many winning plays

ascentior [1:51 AM] Who is this 'vast majority'?
I understand the precedent set by t3c. But they outclass BCs and BSs.  And we're specifically trying to avoid that situation.

selto_black [1:52 AM] but should cruisers be able to wtfpwn t3ds 24/7 in mediums?

suitonia [1:52 AM] Should T3Ds be able to wtfpwn AFs, t1 destroyers, EAFs and interdictors 24/7 in smalls?

suitonia[1:52 AM]it's a circular argument

selto_black [1:53 AM] if t3ds are not competitive in mediums then their use case will be nilch

ascentior [1:53 AM] First, they dont

selto_black [1:53 AM] at least in fw plexes

chessur [1:54 AM] The t3d currently will curbstomp anything destroyer and down

ascentior [1:54 AM] Some t3d do too many things better than their counterpart

chessur [1:54 AM] That is why we are here, to take some teeth out

chessur[1:55 AM]No, all the T3D are opressive right now, and certainly in small plexes

suitonia [1:55 AM] Every T3D is oppresive

ascentior [1:55 AM] But statements like that show that you don't actually understand the situation, and don't want to hear anyone else's take on it. Regardless of evidence

suitonia [1:55 AM] The hecate is certainly more balanced

selto_black [1:56 AM] Personal attacks should probably be kept to a maximum of 0 thank you

chessur [1:57 AM] Don't understand the situation?  really m8?

ascentior [1:57 AM] That did come out a little harsh and I apologise.

chessur [1:57 AM] If t3d are fine, then why are we here? (edited)

ascentior [1:58 AM] https://ccpfocusgroups.slack.com/archives/tactical-destroyers/p1444960453004063
Is not the situation, based on the evidence I already started showing you
chessur
The t3d currently will curbstomp anything destroyer and down
Oct 16th at 1:54 AM

suitonia [1:58 AM] ascentior can you please provide a fit which can kill a Jackdaw, Hecate, Confessor or Svipul in a 1v1

suitonia[1:59 AM]from any of those classes (AFs, Interdictors, Destroyers, EAFs)

suitonia[1:59 AM]assuming reasonable fits from both sides

ascentior [1:59 AM] Check my previous link.

suitonia [1:59 AM] I've killed T3Ds in Frigs before, but that's not because they are balanced, it's because they were poorly flown

sfm_hobb3s [2:00 AM] I'm completely fine with t3d curbstopping anything destroyer and down.  And even with giving cruisers a run for their money.  Cruisers got way too much creep themselves anyways.

suitonia [2:01 AM] Except those cruisers which they give a run for their money

suitonia[2:01 AM]don't exist in smalls

suitonia[2:01 AM]so it's just T3D curbstomps

sfm_hobb3s [2:01 AM] again I'm speaking in general, I can't say anything in regard to FW :simple_smile:

selto_black [2:04 AM] With the purposed changes to the confessors and the svipuls speed mode i can see this fit being very dangerous to all t3d's except the passive/dual mse svipul

selto_black[2:04 AM][Sentinel, Nuter]
Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
5MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive
Warp Scrambler II
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Tracking Disruptor II, Tracking Speed Disruption Script
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Small Diminishing Power System Drain I
Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Semiconductor Memory Cell II
Acolyte II x4
Hobgoblin II x4
Hornet EC-300 x4

suitonia [2:05 AM] https://zkillboard.com/kill/46868001/ / https://zkillboard.com/kill/46927654/ / https://zkillboard.com/kill/49323549/

zkillboard.com
Svipul | Monkinator | Killmail
Monkinator (Perimeter Defense Systems) lost their Svipul in Tannolen (The Citadel). Final Blow by SharkPrince2001 (State Protectorate) flying in a Corax. Total Value: 53,554,693.14 ISK

zkillboard.com
Svipul | MyTimeIsNow | Killmail
MyTimeIsNow (Rapid Withdrawal) lost their Svipul in Sujarento (The Citadel). Final Blow by SharkPrince2001 (State Protectorate) flying in a Corax. Total Value: 46,586,833.18 ISK

zkillboard.com
Hecate | KakaPants | Killmail
KakaPants (Forge Industrial Command) lost their Hecate in K-B8DK (Querious)

suitonia[2:05 AM]This character had 7mil SP at the time

suitonia[2:05 AM]but it's just anecdotal evidence

suitonia[2:05 AM]yes you can kill bad fits and bad pilots

suitonia[2:06 AM]But when you look at the full picture, and the leading fits, it's mega oppressive

suitonia[2:07 AM]If they were flown correctly, I would have lost all those fights

suitonia[2:07 AM]except the hecate one maybe, because the fit

suitonia[2:08 AM]Right now for new players, the progression for SP for FW seems more like novice >> Medium >> small

suitonia[2:08 AM]rather than novice >> small >> Medium

suitonia[2:09 AM]You can of course argue that Pirate Frigates (Particulary the Worm which is still unbalanced) dominate novices,

ascentior [2:10 AM] Worm in novice is a Much greater issue than T3D in small, but that's a different beast

suitonia [2:10 AM] but they aren't on the same scale of Svipul > everything else

ascentior [2:10 AM] Svipul needs to have some teeth removed, agreed

ascentior[2:11 AM]but as i said, a brawl fit should be vulnerable to kiters (with some ability to turn the table) and a kiter should be in big trouble if scarmmed

ascentior[2:11 AM]And as it stands, an AC Svipul warping in on 2x Tormentors and Crucifier is dead

suitonia [2:12 AM] Currently the Svipul is faster than some AB cruisers in speed mode with no prop

suitonia[2:12 AM]479m/s base speed

suitonia[2:12 AM]every combat frig in the game is slower

suitonia[2:12 AM]so it's not vulnerable when scrammed

suitonia[2:12 AM]it kills everything when it's scrammed even with lr kite fit

ascentior [2:12 AM] THAT is the issue, not that it fights dessies

ascentior[2:13 AM]What you have mentioned should not be the case. And it should be the goal that it isn't that dangerous. But as it stands, that would still be DIAF when double webbed and TDd, so it's not unbeatable by small gangs

ascentior[2:14 AM]And should they get the balance we seem to all agree on, then they shouldn't be as oppressive as they are now, so therefore even MORE vulnerable to small gangs

suitonia [2:15 AM] why should it require a small gang to defeat a T3D

suitonia[2:15 AM]If your a solo player trying to capture small FW plexes

suitonia[2:15 AM]you can't if you're not a T3D

suitonia[2:15 AM]thats the issue

suitonia[2:16 AM]Gone are the new Coercer and Corax pilots

ascentior [2:19 AM] That is the nature of FW. There is a bigger fish. If you want to solo, either be that bigger fish, or avoid the bigger fish.

ascentior[2:21 AM]I agree that the T3D is CURRENTLY too much. But THAT is the issue, not that you can't solo FW plexes in the cheapest combat ship available against all opponents

ascentior[2:21 AM]Solo coercers are in danger to much more than T3D

ascentior[2:22 AM]The fact that T3D (even while OP) are still dying to t1 dessies on a regular basis suggest that once shaved back a little, they SHOULD be in a good place to be competitive

ascentior[2:23 AM]FW is not a solo battlefield. There are good opportunities for solo, but we can't have it all

forsot [2:24 AM] i can link sol atrons killing them. To me their tank/speed/sig are the issue them having slightly better damage application over their t1 counterparts is not that bad

suitonia [2:27 AM] Ok, So I think a great thing to add the Sard Caids Spreadsheet would be the following
Do you think Tactical Destroyers should be removed from small plexes? 
Comments/explaination

suitonia [2:27 AM]  Pinned a message. See all pinned items in this channel.
suitonia
Ok, So I think a great thing to add the Sard Caids Spreadsheet would be the following
Do you think Tactical Destroyers should be removed from small plexes? 
Comments/explaination
Oct 16th at 2:27 AM

ascentior [2:29 AM] I was planning on making it one of my major points anyway. I have the feeling that this is already decided by CCP though. And a lot have accepted it without much thought

gorski_car [3:38 AM] It is

ascentior [3:48 AM] I think I'm missing your reference r point Gorski? What is?

ascentior [4:05 AM] Ah, I see, you're pointing out that the T3D in FW smalls is concluded.
Yeah, it seems that way, and that was why I hadn't really bothered broaching the subject., But more than a couple of people have asked me to make the argument for them to stay

syenna-celeste [7:49 AM] https://ccpfocusgroups.slack.com/archives/tactical-destroyers/p1444958920004003
Ascentiorascentior
But the general premise is; 
T3Ds should be vulnerable to a small gang (2-3) of frigs, and in the most part, they are.
T3Ds should be vulnerable to an anti-frig fitted cruiser.
This means they are NOT OP in small plexes, and they will be outclassed completely in mediums. Show more...
Oct 16th at 1:28 AM

syenna-celeste[7:49 AM]I can't overstate how incorrect all of these statements are.

syenna-celeste[7:49 AM]Except the anti-frig cruiser part.

syenna-celeste[7:51 AM]A T3D properly fit will eat a small frigate gang for breakfast, and then ask for seconds. Hell, an expensively fit (and appropriately linked and implanted) T3D will take on 15 or more frigates alone.

syenna-celeste[7:53 AM]In their current position they utterly outclass T1 Destroyers, and aren't all that vulnerable to cruisers that aren't Orthrus'. Which says to me there's a problem given how powerful cruisers are in general (and how strong the Orthrus has to be to cause problems for T3Ds)

ascentior [7:53 AM] Forget links and implants. We're moving into ridiculous Territory now.

syenna-celeste [7:53 AM] They need to be gone from smalls, and the people telling you otherwise just want to keep up their easy mode.

ascentior [7:54 AM] No, the people telling me otherwise are the people killing them in smalls

syenna-celeste [7:54 AM] Then they can go ahead and kill them in mediums.

ascentior [7:55 AM] So in your sweeping general statement that everything I've said is wrong. Do you think they should be vulnerable to a small fleet of  Frigates?

syenna-celeste [7:56 AM] Yes. Your statement then went on to say that they are, which they're not.

syenna-celeste [8:03 AM] Oh yeah:
>Forget links and implants.

In lowsec, anybody not running at least one of these is an honorable samurai. Or poorly informed. Or just straight poor. You can't not factor them in to balancing decisions since it's fairly certain that they're not going away for the foreseeable future.

syenna-celeste[8:03 AM]And they are ?_everywhere_?.

gorski_car [8:19 AM] Links have sadly become more of a standard

hoodie-mafia [1:12 PM] Thats more of a general issue, the fact that link alts are much more common now. And not so much something that was driven by T3Ds. Although it does push the already too powerful T3Ds to a whole new level
But still, despite the fact that they are more common now. Would you really want to go and balance with the assumption that people are running ganglinks for all their T3Ds?
I think if you ignore links and go with a proper balancing pass it will be enough to also severly weaken linked T3Ds

syenna-celeste [1:16 PM] It was an extreme example. Truth is an un-linked T3D will still crush a small frigate gang, which is what Ascentior was contesting.

syenna-celeste[1:17 PM]Idk. Links are a prickly subject. And as to whether I'd balance with the assumption that they're linked? Well.. Yes, given that I ?_do_? run ganglinks for all my T3Ds.

syenna-celeste [1:17 PM] is sort of a terrible person.

selto_black [1:17 PM] I think we should make some time to go play testing.

hoodie-mafia [1:18 PM] I think that statement is a little to blank, define "frigate gang". An untanked T3D doesnt tank more than a few hundred dps and can be killed by a small group of frigates 3-5 (depending on the tech level and fit on the frigates)

hoodie-mafia[1:19 PM]unlinked*

syenna-celeste [1:21 PM] "How long is a piece of string."

hoodie-mafia [1:21 PM] And yes links are a tough subject because they are there and are affecting how stuff plays out in Eve, regardless of whether we want to acknowledge it or not. But to just blindly assume ganglinks and balance on thay hoes waay to far

syenna-celeste [1:22 PM] But yeah. It's a poor metric.

syenna-celeste[1:22 PM]5 derptrons vs an artillery Svipul is an easy 15 second victory for the Svipul since it'll just blap them straight off the field.

hoodie-mafia [1:22 PM] Would be nice to see some data on how many T3Ds die under the effects of links

syenna-celeste [1:22 PM] Too many variables.

syenna-celeste[1:22 PM]And yeah, I'd be curious to see that.

syenna-celeste[1:23 PM]But I don't think it would mean very much.

hoodie-mafia [1:23 PM] Ulikely that we can ever see that data though

hoodie-mafia[1:25 PM]Links make everything go out of context, a linked and properly tanked Confessor/Svipul can easily tank and kill an rlml Orthrus

hoodie-mafia[1:25 PM]It makes you forget for a second how overpowered an Orthrus under link effects is

chessur [1:57 PM] no

chessur[1:57 PM]a T3D cannot kill an orthrus

chessur[1:57 PM]orthrus does too much DPS, and you will never break its tank

chessur[1:58 PM]not to mention the fact that it can just scram you at 24K

hoodie-mafia [2:28 PM] They can actually, 10mn linked T3Ds take almost no damage under links even from light missiles

syenna-celeste [2:29 PM] If an Orthrus manages to get run down by a 10mn T3D then honestly I see that as darwinism rather than a balancing problem.

hoodie-mafia [2:30 PM] https://zkillboard.com/kill/49089841/

zkillboard.com
Svipul | Hoodie Mafia | Killmail
Hoodie Mafia (Hard Knocks Inc.) lost their Svipul in F2OY-X (Querious). Final Blow by Teslarr Arareb (Caldari Deep Space Ventures) flying in a Caracal. Total Value: 160,882,527.40 ISK

hoodie-mafia[2:30 PM]A 10mn svipul does 4700 heated

hoodie-mafia[2:30 PM]Thats not that hard to imagine being caught by it

hoodie-mafia[2:31 PM]https://zkillboard.com/kill/49091359/ is the nearest example I could look up quickly

zkillboard.com
Orthrus | Horibble Ormand | Killmail
Horibble Ormand (High Flyers) lost their Orthrus in M-ZJWJ (Immensea). Final Blow by Hoodie Mafia (Hard Knocks Inc.) flying in a Svipul. Total Value: 908,532,905.18 ISK

hoodie-mafia[2:32 PM]It was 2 svipuls but the point remains, it would have lived longer with 1 Svipul but it can still get ran down and its unable to kill the Svipuls

chessur [3:50 PM] the orthrus fit is so bad....

chessur[3:52 PM]im sorry but, a properly fit and flown orthrus doesnt die to10mn AB svipuls. Even if the svipuls do manage to catch the orthrus, they are certainly not going to be going near full speed with AB in order to help mitigate damage. Load precision missiles, GG.

hoodie-mafia [4:01 PM] I'd be willing to take you up on that Chessur:)

hoodie-mafia[4:02 PM]But were getting offtopic

selto_black [5:23 PM] @ccp_fozzie just watched the video! Sounds like some good stuff. I am worried that the introduction of new small sized ships might have a major impact on our focus group. Hopefully we get some preliminary stats released to the public soon so that we can take them into account.

ccp_fozzie [5:24 PM] https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103671 for the navy frigs
[December] Navy EWar Frigates: Hello one and all! We are planning a big set of ship and module updates for this Winter, including 13 new ships, module tiericide and much more. This thread will introduce 4 of the new ships, a new line of Empire Navy Ewar Frigates. These ships are...

ccp_fozzie[5:24 PM]logi frigs are not quite ready to share stats on yet but we're going to be fairly careful with them

ccp_fozzie[5:25 PM]think the difference between T1 and T2 logi cruisers, or even a bit closer

selto_black [5:56 PM] Gah! I need a way to edit the evehq database!

chessur [6:04 PM] I am sad about T2 frig logi

chessur[6:04 PM]eve doesn't need more space clerics imo

chessur[6:04 PM]vigil navy issue is interesting tho, only T1 hull to have web range bonus

selto_black [6:10 PM] Rockets for days!

chessur [6:12 PM] with a web bonus

chessur[6:12 PM]and no velocity bonus

chessur[6:13 PM]i would suspect LML

chessur[6:13 PM]and long point

chessur[6:13 PM]with 2X web

chessur[6:13 PM]GG

chessur[6:13 PM]you thought the garmr was bad?

chessur[6:13 PM]welcome to new hell

chessur[6:13 PM]And this one can shoot fury missiles at you, that apply full damage

selto_black [6:17 PM] That is my preferred pvp play style. Render the opponent impotent and then have friends blap you.

chessur [6:20 PM] meh.

chessur[6:20 PM]just going to be more of a headache for small gang /solo

chessur[6:20 PM]more frigates means that anti-frigate ships are going to become more and more imporant

chessur[6:20 PM]as eve turns to a heavy small ship meta

chessur[6:20 PM]with destroyers and frigates comprising the majority of ships

selto_black [6:36 PM] Imo decreasing the time between pvp ship death and undocking again can only be a good thing.

selto_black[6:37 PM]Throw a bit of rouge like mechanics so that newbros and vets alike don't get bored.

selto_black[6:38 PM]Eat, sleep, whelp, repeat. (edited)

suitonia [9:29 PM] Should nerf the hull HP on the Tristan too a bit @ccp_fozzie

suitonia[9:29 PM]Still has too high DPS/EHP ratio in a 24km kite fit

suitonia[9:30 PM]but all the other changes are great

suitonia[9:30 PM]Slasher is going to awesome now it can actually fit Mwd+MSE and small neut

suitonia[9:31 PM]Orthrus is still going to be the most broken ship in the game

suitonia[9:32 PM]But going from 10 to 8.75 effective turrets might at least make way for some other options

suitonia[9:32 PM]10 effective launchers was way too high

gorski_car [9:45 PM] wrong channel bruhhh

forsot [9:59 PM] @selto_black:  you can make ships to your own specs in eve hq its not as nice to deal with as pyfa or eft for that tho


-----
October 17th
-----

suitonia [12:23 AM] So... are there any other issues with T3D that you feel merit a discussion

suitonia [10:20 PM] Well I think that constitutes this discussion then, took us 10 days or so but I think everyone is happy with what has been discussed

johndrees [11:48 PM] Felt pretty solid. I still have to get that little summary page put together.


-----
October 18th
-----

fintarue [12:10 AM] I may have missed it but did we come up with something about the prop mode for svipul?

johndrees [12:35 AM] There were a lot of ideas discussed.

sardcaid [1:39 AM] I never did mention the micro-transaction charge for changing modes

sardcaid[1:40 AM]thought I should type that in at least once :simple_smile:

selto_black [2:29 AM] ... Oh god no please.


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October 20th
-----

fintarue [12:13 AM] Ok, question. With all that we've talked about, we were discussing removing the signature bonuses on the jackdaw and confessor defense modes.  For the confessor there was talk of replacing it with an armor cap useage bonus in defense.  What about the jackdaw

fintarue[12:13 AM]Anything for that?

johndrees [6:06 AM] I think the most agreed upon change to the jackdaw was the loss of a mid and addition of a lowslot. I don't know that much had been said regarding changing it's tank anymore than that.

sardcaid [12:55 PM] I don't think there was a consensus decision on that change

johndrees [7:52 PM] "Most agreed upon"

johndrees[7:52 PM]It's not like we voted on anything.

sardcaid [9:10 PM] Truth

sardcaid[9:10 PM]Agreement usually meant of the between the three people chatting at the time :)

fintarue [9:56 PM] Well, the signature radius for the ships was a pretty hot issue.  We had talked about taking the sig radius bonus off the defense mode for the confessor and replacing with armor rep cap or another undefined cap bonus.  If we suggested removing the sig radius bonus on jackdaw defense mode

fintarue[9:56 PM]I think it'd be fair to think of a replacement for that too


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October 21st
-----

suitonia [5:59 PM] I don't mind the signature radius bonus if the base sig is increased

selto_black [7:15 PM] So, what are the best fleet fits for t3ds?

selto_black[7:16 PM]I'm attempting to come up with a plated beam confessor that dosent suck ATM.

chessur [7:27 PM] [Confessor, 10Mn]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Small Ancillary Armor Repairer
10MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
[Empty High slot]
Dual Light Beam Laser II, Aurora S
Dual Light Beam Laser II, Aurora S
Dual Light Beam Laser II, Aurora S
Dual Light Beam Laser II, Aurora S
[Empty High slot]
Small Energy Locus Coordinator I
Small Ancillary Current Router II
Small Energy Locus Coordinator II

chessur[7:27 PM][Confessor, MWD]
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Small Ancillary Armor Repairer
Small 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I
5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Small Focused Beam Laser II
Small Focused Beam Laser II
Small Focused Beam Laser II
Small Focused Beam Laser II
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Energy Locus Coordinator II
Small Energy Locus Coordinator II

fintarue [9:54 PM] I have a shield extender beam fit I use for fleets

fintarue[9:54 PM]6k EHP hits to 60km


-----
October 22nd
-----

sardcaid [11:37 PM] suitonia [7:27 PM] 
Ok, So I think a great thing to add the Sard Caids Spreadsheet would be the following
Do you think Tactical Destroyers should be removed from small plexes? 
Comments/explaination

sardcaid[11:37 PM]Just saw this on pinned

sardcaid[11:37 PM]if it were up to me, we could balance these things to be a strong but defeatable presence in small outposts

sardcaid[11:40 PM]I'm not sure if we'll be able to, or if this panel / CCP / playerbase would want to see T3D toned down enough for that to be feasible though

sardcaid[11:42 PM]It will be a massive blow to the micro gang and solo community for T3D to be denied from small outposts, and will probably drive players to fly other stuff

sardcaid[11:42 PM]Massive blow in respect to those that prefer flying these ships

gorski_car [11:46 PM] pretty sure that has already been decided tho

chessur [11:50 PM] disagree

chessur[11:51 PM]T3D have no place in smalls

chessur[11:51 PM]get them out


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October 23rd
-----

sardcaid [12:13 AM] There's nothing stopping CCP from rebalancing T3D into something that is on power level of T2D

sardcaid[12:14 AM]I don't think that would ever happen though

fintarue [1:44 AM] A huge portion of the fighting I've ever done often takes place outside of plexes

fintarue[1:45 AM]Honestly, it's reasonable to me that they can't get in just for the fact t3 cruisers can't get in to mediums

sardcaid [1:53 AM] T3 cruisers are also in a terrible place balance wise

fintarue [1:54 AM] Well, besides my point

sardcaid [1:54 AM] is it though?

sardcaid[1:54 AM]we're talking about molding what these ships, T3Ds currently are

sardcaid[1:54 AM]who's to say that the changes that come from this group mold T3Ds into something that isn't oppressive for the PvP meta that exists in small outposts?

sardcaid[1:55 AM]it's an important ecology to consider in the game, and saying that a very popular and fun ship can no longer participate inside them sucks

fintarue [2:11 AM] How much do you feel the changes we've talked about would push towards that?

sardcaid [2:34 AM] Really depends on what's picked up and what's not

sardcaid[2:34 AM]I don't think CCP is going to be terribly aggressive with T3D balancing

sardcaid[2:34 AM]With that in mind T3D can stay away from the innards of a small outpost

sardcaid[2:35 AM]But if we have aggressive nerfing of the more powerful mode bonuses, I can see T3D being on the same level in many regards with T2D

sardcaid[2:36 AM]'Aggressive' meaning doing away with the 33 and 66 percent themes, nerfing and restructuring multiple modes, moving part of damage bonus to sharpshooter

fintarue [4:35 PM] Well, I think Fozzie was already saying they were looking to move some of the damage to sharp.  I think the biggest part of the t3d that would need hit in order to make them reasonable for small outposts would be the tank

fintarue[4:35 PM]Specially the svipul

fintarue[4:35 PM]It'd hafta be hit huge

suitonia [5:26 PM] Has this chat been made public yet?

suitonia[5:26 PM]I guess Fozzie is in Vegas

suitonia[5:27 PM]So maybe after

fintarue [5:44 PM] Not yet

sardcaid [6:27 PM] Last I heard fozzie will be looking at this post vegas

selto_black [8:50 PM] Two turrets...? That would need a hell of a bonus though. it would also free up some cargo space on their already massive cargo.

fintarue [8:56 PM] What's two turrets?

suitonia [11:21 PM] Fozzie isn't in vegas apparently

suitonia[11:21 PM]I was wrong

suitonia[11:21 PM]hes in the mittani vegas twitch stream

suitonia[11:21 PM]I'm not sure what he means by two turrets, I would guess hes suggesting moving the svipul to two turrets and therefore limiting grid further for ACs with reduced grid

suitonia[11:22 PM]but going down to 2 turrets doesn't sound good to me

suitonia[11:22 PM]despite the current issues with Arty/AC fitting desparity

gorski_car [11:22 PM] it feels very strange as well

gorski_car[11:22 PM]2 guns feels weak even if 1000% dmg bonus

selto_black [11:55 PM] yes

selto_black[11:55 PM]that is what i was sugessting


-----
October 24th
-----

fintarue [12:29 AM] Why not just reduce the fitting and give it a role bonus for arty fitting?

fintarue[12:29 AM]So it hits the AC fits, but not arty

selto_black [12:34 AM] Same effect. +1

suitonia [3:27 AM] It's a projectile problem though

suitonia[3:27 AM]shoehorning it on the svipul is probably going to be bad

fintarue [3:58 AM] Agreed, but that's something they'd hafta fix

fintarue[3:59 AM]as a seperate issue


-----
October 26th
-----

namamai [8:02 PM] It's sort of a throwback to the Firetail.


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October 27th
-----

selto_black [3:03 PM] So, would an ewar resistance bonus on sharpshooter be a boon of opness or a bastion of meh if the base attributes if the hull and the mode were toned down?

forsot [8:03 PM] That would be interesting but would it effect webs? or points? cause if so it would break them even more

selto_black [8:58 PM] no stasis web resistance is another stat that ccp is adding and warpcore strength is separate from both.


-----
October 28th
-----

gorski_car [8:30 PM] would love to see stasis web resistance on afs

gorski_car[8:30 PM]but thats another topic

fintarue [11:29 PM] A topic that I think needs another focus group.  Even though it's quiet now, this was a ton of useful brainstorming for the first two weeks


-----
October 29th
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sardcaid [12:13 AM] Well maybe scope will be expanded, dunno

sardcaid[12:13 AM]This format, though prototype rough is great for most balancing topics

fintarue [12:14 AM] It's definitely good for hashing out some good ideas

sardcaid [12:14 AM] I'd imagine new groups would be called for any class

sardcaid[12:15 AM]I only to account for those in the group who haven't contributed in a dialogue

sardcaid[12:15 AM]If only*


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October 30th
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suitonia [11:59 AM] unrelated

suitonia[11:59 AM]but now that CCP has the ability to seperate warp disruptor and warp scrambler bonuses (Navy Maulus)

suitonia[12:00 PM]Can we remove the Scram Bonuses from Orthrus/Garmur?

suitonia[12:00 PM]:smile:

suitonia[12:00 PM]and leave warp disruptor only

gorski_car [12:47 PM] leave my Orthrus alone

gorski_car[12:47 PM]also scram bonus makes my rocket garmur so good

suitonia [12:52 PM] wow rude

suitonia[12:52 PM]no "Orthrus is fine l2p"

gorski_car [1:11 PM] Orthrus is horrible in bigger scale stuff

hoodie-mafia [1:35 PM] Hows that a bad thing gorski_car

gorski_car [1:35 PM] That's a good thing

forsot [3:13 PM] not to get too off topic but ya removing scram range will make the orthrus go the way of the dodo as vagas and such will walk all over it

fintarue [9:53 PM] Make them also scram only


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October 31st
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selto_black [4:05 PM] So with them adding tracking to the drifter dd, T3d incursions should be a thing now

selto_black[4:06 PM]Using t2 Frig logi and buffer fit svips/confessors

selto_black[4:06 PM]this is a great addition for newbros

selto_black [4:35 PM] i need to crunch some numbers to be sure though


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November 3rd
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selto_black [1:25 PM] @ccp_fozzie so... Any questions you still have?

ccp_fozzie [1:26 PM] yes absolutely, but I've just been swamped with other work lately (currently hunting down bugs)

selto_black [1:29 PM] Ouch, that sucks. Well, we'll be here when you have the time.

focusgrouplogbot [5:03 PM] joined #tactical-destroyers

fintarue [11:21 PM] lol Now there's a log bot

gorski_car [11:22 PM] A bit late now dont you think

namamai [11:33 PM] Better late than never, I suppose.


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November 4th
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selto_black [12:19 AM] Dat face though

ccp_fozzie [10:25 AM] The earlier stuff is logged as well, just not with a bot

mikeazariah [10:04 PM] well as long as we are keeping track


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November 5th
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suitonia [5:53 PM] Ayyy

sardcaid [6:27 PM] @ccp_fozzie: Were there any topics of discussion from the Dev team that you seek input on?

sardcaid[6:28 PM]Even if you haven't read the backlog, we can move forward on other issues / ideas

ccp_fozzie [10:49 PM] I know it was raised a bit earlier, but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the idea of replacing part of the sharpshooter mode bonuses with the new ewar resistance (percentage resistance to damps, tracking disruptiors and potentially painters)

ccp_fozzie[10:51 PM]I am sorry for the lull here, some other tasks that need to get done with a higher priority have taken longer than I expected

ccp_fozzie[10:52 PM]We're definitely not ignoring T3Ds, and we definitely want to get results from this focus group into the game during the winter season (probably either December or January)

fintarue [11:28 PM] Awww yis, december update t3.

fintarue[11:30 PM]I think most of us had considered removing the scan resolution bonus on the t3d sharp mode for increase sensor strength for ECM resistance.  If that was to apply to a resistance to damps, ECM, and TDs, that would be well suited to that flavor as well.  I wouldn't put paint or web resistance on Sharpshooter though

fintarue[11:31 PM]I wouldn't put paint or web resistance on the hulls at all, since many of us have agreed that the tanking on many of them need to eat it in a reasonable way already


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November 6th
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forsot [12:25 AM] paint resistance in defensive would be a lot less of an issue then a sig reduction. making ewar resistance would allow for nerfs/removal of some of the more oppressive base stats like sensor strength it would also be interesting to see what happens with sniper fits

forsot[12:27 AM]a web resistance would be bad unless you remove 10mn fits completely

ccp_fozzie [12:29 AM] I don't have any plans to put web resistance on T3Ds

fintarue [12:29 AM] Thank god. Let's come back to that stuff when there's an AF focus group lol

fintarue[12:30 AM]The ewars that hurt locking/range/application would fit well as a resistance to sharpshooter mode for sure.  Especially in trade of scan res


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November 7th
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suitonia [6:14 PM] Just to keep the coversation going

suitonia[6:14 PM]I see a lot of complaints about instalocking Svipuls

suitonia[6:15 PM]how would you all feel if the 50% Damage Role Bonus was replaced with a 33% Bonus to Rate of Fire

suitonia[6:15 PM]Mathematically these bonuses provide the same DPS boost

suitonia[6:15 PM]but it would be a third less alpha

suitonia[6:15 PM]on Svipuls

suitonia[6:16 PM]I.e. Instead of 9 Effective Turrets worth of Alpha, it would drop down to 9 Effective Turrets but with 6 Effective Turrets of Alpha

suitonia[6:16 PM]Not endorsing this just spitballing it

suitonia[6:17 PM]1 / 0.66 = 1.5x damage boost

suitonia[6:19 PM]Or with the DPS on sharpshooter idea it could be 20% Rate of Fire on Hull (25% DPS increase) with 20% Damage Boost on Sharpshooter mode.

suitonia[6:20 PM]1.25 x 1.20 = 1.5

forsot [6:33 PM] that would also be a considerable nerf to overheating your high slots tho

forsot[6:36 PM]if you move part of the volly bonus to offensive mod and give it ewar resistance instead of a buff to scan res while also having that resistance effect resabos that will take away a lot of that issue would it not?

forsot[6:38 PM]you could still triple sebo or whatever but you would be trading tank or damage

johnnytwelvebore [6:50 PM] there are a lot of complaints about instalocking svips and I hate them as much as anyone but tbh you can fit anything to do that esp with remote sebos and such, if you cater for such a niche role then it kinda opens a precedent, plus instalockers are easy to kill once you get on them.

selto_black [10:31 PM] thats a lot of ammo to burn through


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November 8th
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suitonia [7:52 AM] I think it takes over 6 minutes to actually use every charge in most ac ships before reloading

selto_black [4:45 PM] beam fessor best fessor


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November 9th
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ccp_fozzie [1:45 PM] Hey folks, just another reminder that although I've had to take an unfortunate pause to work on other things, we're not giving up on this group

ccp_fozzie[1:45 PM]everything has been logged from the beginning and nothing is lost